NDR for kays (National Debt Recovery) Administration Fees

[DownWithNDR]

Hi,

 

Really struggling to keep my cool with this bunch of cowboys so any help on the matter below would be really appreciated.

 

I've completed my Financial Statement and it works out that NDR (on behalf of Kays £80 debt) would recieve £1 a month (it's actually less but I rounded up).

 

I previously received a letter saying that unless full payment or an acceptable offer was made within 7 days then legal action would be taken.

 

I called NDR and they refused to accept a payment of £1 a month and refused to view my Financial Statement (Calculated using CAB's website) unless its completed by a Debt Management Company (I've continued making the payment regardless).

 

As a result of their refusal to accept the offer and refusal to view my financial statement I requested they no longer call me and that all communication should be made in writing.

 

I received a letter today entitled Pre-Escalation Notice stating "I have attempted to contact you on numerous occassions regarding the overdue payment on the account....As a result we have applied a £12 admin fee on your account due to the substantial amount of effort I have made in trying to contact you"

 

The letter today has been the only written communication since the last phone call when I requested they no longer communicate by telephone.

 

I called them today and asked them how they could have gone to considerable effort trying to contact me when the admin fee letter had been the only communication since the last time I spoke to them. They said the fee was for taking my number off of their dialing system and that's the standard letter.

 

Not only is that a rediculous fee for pressing delete on a keyboard but also makes the information in the letter false. I'm pretty sure that all communications have to be trueful, accurate and not misleading. If I'm being charged a fee for something then shouldn't it state clearly what that fee's for? Otherwise they might as well state the fee's for making me cupcakes because that didn't happen either! Also as it's Entitled "Pre-Escalation Notice" shouldn't the letter refer to the Escalation rather than a fee as there's no other mention of Escalation?

 

Their first letter was saying action with 7 days was also false. When they wouldn't accept my offer of payments and I refused to make full payment I backed them into a corner and said "So legal action would be taken in 7 days then?" they said no it could be months and have charges applied.

 

Sorry it's a lot of questions but again any help would really be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

[ScarletPimpernel]

Adding charges like this is covered by the OFT Guidance (as is misleading communication), which states that it is an unfair practice to add such charges unless the credit agreement specifically provides for them, and the scope and amount is made clear.

 

Such charges are usually uneneforceable, and it's likely that it's just a tactic to get you to either pay more or phone them so that they can try to extract more money. You have already seen how they lie and wriggle, so you should know that they will say whatever they think it will take to get you to pay more.

 

The first thing you need to do is stop speaking to them on the phone, and keep everything in writing. The second thing is to send a short letter telling them that using CAB's software you have calculated that you can afford to pay £1 per month, and that you consider their silly fees and misleading communications are unfair within the meaning of the OFT Guidance.

 

It's extremely unlikely that they would go to court in the circumstances.

 

Incidentally, have you asked for a copy of the credit agreement yet?

[DownWithNDR]

Hi thanks for replying!

 

Great advice. No I haven't asked for a copy of the agreement yet. This is one of the smallest debts I have (and they're making the most noise, typical). I've read conflicting information about requesting the CA so was going to hold off until I know more about it. All of my debts are at least 9/10 years old possibly older. Should I go ahead with the request?

[ScarletPimpernel]

I'd CCA them. A debt of this size is unlikely to result in court action. Catalogue companies (and NDR are in-house DCAs) often offer a disproportionately large amount of hassle, and a CCA request will often stop them in their tracks. If it's from 9/10 years ago it's likely that they won't have valid paperwork.

 

Standby for a letter waffling about not having paperwork not meaning a debt isn't valid, or how you have had goods and this is proof of a debt, and other meaningless drivel.

 

If they can't produce, you can choose to ignore them or have the immense satisfaction of telling them that you are, despite their appalling behaviour and lack of enforceable documentation, prepared to pay them £1 per month.

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Oh, you'll certainly get a load of waffle from Nil Desper Random. They are also fond of issuing default notices, often after a CCA request. More disregard for regulations. Just to warn you in advance that once they realize they aren't getting more money than you can afford they will perhaps try to get you to refinance. I don't need to say don't and they also won't care if it triples the debt with upfront charges and interest. CCA as advised but be prepared for their silly 'red' typed threats they will send. Ignore them and any phone calls.

[DownWithNDR]

Just a quick update on this. Have sent off my CCA today, recorded delivery and postal order of a pound enclosed. All typed and not written, nothing signed by myself. However has been sent to a PO Box address but its called NDR Payments so I think someone will sign for it eventually thinking there's a cheque in there.

 

I've decided I'm going to do the same to other creditors that use DCA's who are threatening or use underhand techniques, the next being ARC Europe Ltd acting on behalf of Egg.

 

They started out very friendly and polite to begin with, accepting my offer of payment etc but had a call from a rude rep who called me using a presumably company mobile because apparently they were having technical problems with their phone system. Tried to argue that I hadn't sent the payment for the beginning of July which was pre payment plan setup. I explained to him that the plan only started at the end of July and the first payment was scheduled to be made at the beginning of August (which was paid). He then interrupted me with "Have you finished talking? Are you done?!?" so that he could begin lieing again. To which I replied "Yes I'm done" and hung up the phone.

 

I will not tolerate rudeness. Be careful of ARC Europe Ltd folks, this is a new tactic to me, sounds like they're trying to get extra funds by saying payments havent been made for periods before payment plans have been put in place. So they're next on the CCA list.

[creditcardmug]

"Creditors who are threatening, or use underhand techniques"...i think we can assume they are all in there then!!! Check out the other threads on here, this is their modus operandi, regardless of whether it is within the law or not!

Keep up the good work against these monsters, you are doing well

[Guest Cartaphilus]

However has been sent to a PO Box address but its called NDR Payments so I think someone will sign for it eventually thinking there's a cheque in there.

 

Mmm, NDR seems to have been tinkering with their names a lot since I last had to deal with them. 'NDR Payments'. Still all Shop Direct anyway whatever name they choose to want to be known by. Not sure why they choose to use these names as everyone who knows about them knows it's Shop Direct anyway, but that's the idea isn't it? To make you assume they are a seperate DCA.

 

Post whatever response you get from them but expect more waffle from them than what is put into waffle making.

[harrassed senior]

Hi thanks for replying!

 

Great advice. No I haven't asked for a copy of the agreement yet. This is one of the smallest debts I have (and they're making the most noise, typical). I've read conflicting information about requesting the CA so was going to hold off until I know more about it. All of my debts are at least 9/10 years old possibly older. Should I go ahead with the request?

 

Has there been a period of 6 years (5 in Scotland) when no payment acknowledgement has been made?

[DownWithNDR]

Depends on how you define payment acknowledgement. If you mean have I been making regular payments and been in contact with them to discuss it then yes.

 

Another quick update to this thread.

 

I received a letter from them saying as requested they've attached a copy of a "recent" credit agreement that applies to my type of account. So not the original CA and doesnt have my signature either. So I'm guessing unenforceable? It also doesn't contain a list of my account activity, payments/charges/interest etc that I requested at the same time (SAR?)

 

What's the next stage of action? I know there's another letter that should be sent but everytime I try to access the library it keeps asking me to sign in (which I do and then asks me to sign in again and again lol).

 

If someone could post a link to the followup letter it would be much appreciated

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Unsure why you've had difficulties as once logged into the forum you should be able to view that section without logging in again (maybe asking someone on admin, could be a glitch?).

 

It would be this letter, though:

 

Letter used when a company fail to provide a copy of your agreement within the 12+2 working days timescale after your initial request for a copy of your agreement made under s 77/8 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Highlights in red must be edited)

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 days after you made the initial request).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 21 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[2SEECLEARLY]

May I ask whether NDR is NATIONWIDE DEBT RECOVERY and not NATIONAL DEBT RECOVERY?? Thanks for your help

[cerberusalert]

NDR = Nationwide Debt Recovery

Royal Avenue

Widnes

WA8 8HS

 

Registered Office:

1st Floor

Skyways House

Speke Road

Speke

Liverpool

L70 1AB

 

Company Registration number is 1778238

[jimbo45]

Hi there

some of these companies have NO rights whatsoever -- depending on the size of the debt and the creditor I'd start going on the ATTACK against them - particularly if you have almost no available money to pay these bozos.

 

Just write back -- Please Foxtrot Oscar and DO NOT CONTACT ME AGAIN -- especially since you have provided me with NO AUTHORITY whatsoever that you are entitled to collect a debt. A notice saying "This debt has been assigned by YYYY" is NOT sufficient proof of authority to collect ths debt.

 

I am just going to IGNORE any further communication -- and if you really ARE stupid enough to attempt to proceed with any court action the most you would get would be 1 GBP a month -- and if I defaulted on that you are totally hosed up anyway.

 

So please go and EAT SHY-E and DIE and pester someone else.

 

Not a "legal response" but sometimes its the only way -- if you HAVEN'T got any money the Court process will give you a BETTER DEAL 100% of the time than anything you can get from a DCA.

 

The main issue in all this debt collection stuff is for YOU to take control rather than going spare everytime the Postman calls or the phone rings.

 

DCA's won't go to court if they think they won't make any money out of it -- for smallish debts its a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY FOR THEM.

 

These companies win by SCARE and BULLYING TACTICS and the usal fear most people have of the Court process.

 

Please remember IT'S NOT A CRIME TO GET INTO DEBT --all sorts of people have been there before.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited September 24, 2010 by jimbo45

[2SEECLEARLY]

Thanks for clarifying that NationWIDE Debt Recovery are the bad guys, I understand that they are making it very difficult for their clients to contact them by listing premieum rate phone lines etc. Not Nice People at NationWIDE Debt Recovery (wrongly called NDR for short). Good Luck everyone who has the misfortune to have dealings with them, including their clients i.e. Littlewoods.

[cerberusalert]

I understand that they are making it very difficult for their clients to contact them by listing premieum rate phone lines etc.

Alternatives can usually be found here; http://saynoto0870.com/search.php or here; http://www.fightingdebt.co.uk/whois1.html

[Sare Heid]

oh_ndr_cca_scan0040.pdfhi,

 

OH requested copy of CCA from NDR aka Shop Direct aka Littlewoods Finance. i'd appreciate if anyone could have a look and see if they think its enforceable. most of prescribed terms seem to be there, personal details & signatures have been removed.

 

am i correct that the various charges listed under key information are unenforceable / unlawful since they didn't actually state the amount? NDR currently adding £12 charge every month as OH's payment (£1) less than min they want!

 

i've attached a copy of cca below.

 

 

 

cheers

 

SH

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Assuming you've blotted out some of that, as it looks exactly like mine, it looks like a blank agreement to me. When did you take this account out, year?

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Also, to prevent confusion, would it not be better to start your own thread? You'll get more replies that way.

[Guest Cartaphilus]

I have read that NDR/SDFS are rather fond of sending out blank agreements, thinking you will just go away and not challenge it (along with Next).

[Guest Cartaphilus]

But I am going to take a wild stab in the dark here (because I know which year they started issuing those kinds of agreements, thereabouts) and say ... was it a 2007 one?

[Sare Heid]

account opened in 2007.

 

i've removed all of the personal details (name, address, loan amount, credit charge amount, payments, signatures & dates, etc) which is probably why it looks like like a blank agreement.

 

cheers

 

SH

[ScarletPimpernel]

Unsure why you've had difficulties as once logged into the forum you should be able to view that section without logging in again (maybe asking someone on admin, could be a glitch?).

 

It would be this letter, though:

 

Good letter, but rather long.

 

I prefer:

 

Dear Morons

 

I note that you have responded to my request for a copy of the credit agreement you claim exists between myself and XXX with a document which you say is the type of agreement that would have been signed. Whilst you may have fulfilled your obligation under s.78(1) of the CCA 1974, you will be aware that you cannot enforce the debt without the original.

 

Therefore, please confirm whether or not the original agreement exists, and if so, in whose possession it is.

 

In the meantime, find below a drawing of some £20 notes, which represents the type of money I'd have used to pay you if you had attempted to respond seriously to my request.

 

Yours etc.,