Help - I think RBKC staff is trying to con me into paying PCN

[Alchemist07]

A couple of weeks ago I got give a PCN for parking on a single yellow line.

 

Basically i saw a sign which looked like it said yellow lines only restrict parking from 8am-10am on saturdays and the same for the parking bays (the white part of the sign refers to the parking bays right?), in the end i came back to my car to find i had got a PCN at 12pm.

 

here is the sign:

 

 

 

 

Anyway the area is notting hill gate and it happens to be a CPZ where parking is normally restricted to 6.30pm on saturdays.

 

 

As you can imagine I am really confused about why i got the PCN so i challenged the PCN and got rejected, with the officer telling me

that:

 

"The PCN was issued to your vehicle as it was parked where yellow line restrictions were in force....The sign that you mention in

your letter refers to the times that loading is permitted on the single yellow line...You parked in a CPZ where restrictions are from 8am-6.30pm"

 

So I then a few days later called asking how I parked when the restrictions were in force when the sign clearly states that on saturdays it is only from 8am-10am. The officer tells me:

 

"The sign says that you cant load on the yellow line between 8am-10am and after that you can load, but not park"

 

Now i am not sure wether to believe this and not pay the fine. If i dont pay the fine by tomorrow it is doubled and then i can appeal to the adjudicator, or i can pay now before it is doubled.

 

It seems like they are trying to force me into paying now by scaring me into thinking that i will have to pay double if i dont pay up by tomorrow ...

 

Anyway i would really appreciate it if someone who has this kind of experience could help me clear up what this sign means and if i was allowed to park there after 10 on a saturday regardless of being in a CPZ. Needs to be defiinite if I am going to risk going from 60 pounds to the 120 pounds fine

 

Thanks

[green_and_mean]

From looking at google the sign appears to be meant for the yellow line in the bays but the white plate with the 'P' is missing but assume you can pay and display 10-4. Did you park in the bay or on the yellow line outside, what was the PCN for?

[Al27]

Nearest sign would overrule the CPZ restrictions. The onus is the council to make any restrictions clear - that's the magic phrase. So you were on the yellow line and were given the contravention of parking within restricted hours?

 

Signs states that no parking between 8 and 10 and no loading between 8 and 10. After that you can load or park until 8am on Monday. Both would apply to the yellow line - the white doesn't apply to the bays (unless there was no other sign)

 

The dodgier councils will refuse any appeal. Wait for your NtO and make Representations under 'the contravention did not occur'.

[Alchemist07]

I parked on the yellow line outside the bays (I thnik the yellow line did run through the bays aswell - but what is the point in that? surely the parking bay overrides the single yellow)...There was also a sign for the normal CPZ times (8am-6.30pm) a bit further down the road which i discovered the next day, but the nearest sign to where I was parked was probably the one i have taken a photo of...in any case its quite confusing to have two sign of the yellow line on the same road...

 

On the PCN it says - Contravention: 01 parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. (in the notes it says time 12.10)

[Alchemist07]

ugh....should i go out and measure the distance from where the car was parked to the nearest sign (at the moment I think it might be half way between the normal cpz times sign and the above sign ...not sure )

[green_and_mean]

I parked on the yellow line outside the bays (I thnik the yellow line did run through the bays aswell - but what is the point in that? surely the parking bay overrides the single yellow)...There was also a sign for the normal CPZ times (8am-6.30pm) a bit further down the road which i discovered the next day, but the nearest sign to where I was parked was probably the one i have taken a photo of...in any case its quite confusing to have two sign of the yellow line on the same road...

 

On the PCN it says - Contravention: 01 parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. (in the notes it says time 12.10)

 

Ok I'll explain slowly in easy to understand terms....

 

The bays have a yellow line running through them because you cannot park at some times of the day (shown on sign in your photo)

 

The yellow line you parked on is CPZ hours as shown on the sign further down road, hence you got a PCN

 

The signage is incorrect and misleading and the staff you write to are unlikely to know this as they are goin by a few photos, traffic order and the PCN. The correct signage should show the bay times and waiting/loading restriction on one sign (diag 639.1b) and there should be a sign for the cpz times next to it where they meet with an arrow pointing away from the bays. You need to wait for the NTO and appeal again or go to PATAS if you already appealed to the NTO. Let me know I'll write you a detailed letter.

[lamma]

G&M has nailed it.

[Alchemist07]

Hi,

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me ... after reading it a few times and checking the sign i think i understand.

 

So basically the sign only refers to the parking bays (even though it doesn't have the P sign it is supposed to) right?

 

 

I will get my NTO if i dont pay by tomorrow so do you think i should wait for it then and appeal again?

 

It would be really great if you could help me with a letter of what to say when appealing or something? thanks for the help your'e great!

[Alchemist07]

Hi,

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me ... after reading it a few times and checking the sign i think i understand.

 

So basically the sign only refers to the parking bays (even though it doesn't have the P sign it is supposed to) right?

 

 

I will get my NTO if i dont pay by tomorrow so do you think i should wait for it then and appeal again?

 

It would be really great if you could help me with a letter of what to say when appealing or something? thanks for the help your'e great!

 

also im going to take some more photos of the signage/bays/lines, do you want me to post them so you have a better idea of the situation?

[green_and_mean]

also im going to take some more photos of the signage/bays/lines, do you want me to post them so you have a better idea of the situation?

 

Take a few more photos you need to get a few 'in context' photos showing the layout of the markings, a close up of a sign is not much use on its own. You need to show the yellow line where it joins the bays if hasn't got a 't-bar' where the time changes that will also help you.

 

This is a sign from down the road and is what the sign in your picture should have looked like...

 

Edited August 25, 2010 by green_and_mean

[Alchemist07]

Ah, sorry been bit busy but managed to get the photos now...a little concerned as there is a sign similar to the one you just posted in addition to the sign i took a photo of, :S so seems maybe there is 1 good sign and one bad sign (i dont remember that being there before could be they put it up only recently).

 

In any case you can see from the pics there is one single yellow line that goes all the way across and encompasses all three signs (the possibly correct parking sign, the dodgy one that i fell victim to, and the CPZ siign further to the right), with T bars at the ends before going to double yellow. There isnt any T bars to seperate from the CPZ times to the yellow in the bays or anything.

 

anyway here are the pics, which generally go from left to right, i parked right next to the sign which we are discussing, thinking it was OK to park there:

 

(also, im definitely going to recieve the NTO now that the time is up - what do i need to write to appeal?)

 

Edited August 26, 2010 by Alchemist07

[green_and_mean]

I've just got in and its a bit late but I'll knock you up a letter tomorrow (friday).

[Alchemist07]

I've just got in and its a bit late but I'll knock you up a letter tomorrow (friday).

 

Cheers ... thanks for your help, ill have a look again over the weekend...I guess there no urgency (is there?) to do it immediately so as long as i appeal in the next few days then it should be fine.

[Alchemist07]

Hi...If you can still write me the letter it would be great if you could send it soon?

 

Did you forget? (green?)

[green_and_mean]

Hi...If you can still write me the letter it would be great if you could send it soon?

 

Did you forget? (green?)

 

Sorry my PC packed up and I did forget about it when its replacement arrived!

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to make representations against the PCN no. k######## issued on ##date## on the grounds the contravention did not take place. The Council has a legal duty to place road markings and signs to clearly indicate any restriction they intend to enforce, on this occasion they have not done so. The location where I parked was a single yellow line which requires a timeplate to indicate its hours of restriction, the street is in a CPZ but since the line does have timeplates the CPZ zone entry points do not apply.

Having returned to the scene and inspected the entire street I can see that the intention of the Council is to have a waiting restriction 8.00-10.00am and then pay and display in the adjacent bays and the SYL on which I parked was in fact no waiting from 8.00am-6.30pm.

However due to incorrect and misleading signage I thought the SYL where I parked was only from 8.00-10.00 due to the nearest sign indicating this fact. As you will see from the photo (attatched) there is nothing to indicate that the sign shown only applies to the SYL in the bays. The sign is infact missing its top panel which refers to the bay timing which further adds to the confusion.

To be correctly signed in line with the law and DfT guidelines where the yellow line restriction changes hours there should be a T bar on the yellow line. In addition signage should be inplace with arrows pointing in each direction to show the change in restriction see below:

I therefore request the PCN is cancelled as I parked legally having obeyed the signage that was placed upon the SYL where I parked and was not waiting during restricted hours.

[Alchemist07]

Thanks ... ill send it out and update the forum when i get a response or something else.

[Alchemist07]

So...

 

I ended up sending them an email only to hear from them 1 month later through the post with a charge notice and a demand for a £180 fine.

 

They claim they never got the email so when i did get in contact with them and email them a few more time, they are saying that now the time i had to reply to the NTO is over (30 days) so they cant consider my representions anymore.

 

Clearly the issue is wether they got my email or not, i sent it from a hotmail address which i have used to contact them before and there was no problem that time (they responded by letter-which is why i waited to hear from them by post). I have a record of the email in my sent items so in that sense I have proof, but is this enough, and what do i do, they are threatening bailiffs... :S

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Did you get an NTO and if so what did you do with it?

[sailor sam]

So...

 

I ended up sending them an email only to hear from them 1 month later through the post with a charge notice and a demand for a £180 fine.

 

They claim they never got the email so when i did get in contact with them and email them a few more time, they are saying that now the time i had to reply to the NTO is over (30 days) so they cant consider my representions anymore.

 

Clearly the issue is wether they got my email or not, i sent it from a hotmail address which i have used to contact them before and there was no problem that time (they responded by letter-which is why i waited to hear from them by post). I have a record of the email in my sent items so in that sense I have proof, but is this enough, and what do i do, they are threatening bailiffs... :S

 

Don't you have to appeal in writing? What did it state on the PCN?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Surfer01]

One of the reasons why I would never use email to fight a case. IMHO they probably get a zillion emails a day and have a swift look at them and file them somwhere only to get lost in the system especially if the person dealing with the email goes on holiday or gets sick.

[Alchemist07]

The representations i sent were after i received the NTO. I guess i was a little naive but as i said after having emailed them before i received the NTO and had no problems getting a response from them a few days later...I had no reason to believe that this would happen and patiently waited to hear back form them.

 

I did say on the NTO that you could send representations via email to parking{at}rbkc.gov.uk

 

In any case the email i sent has the date on it which is clearly 2 weeks after they sent the NTO, and you are given around 4 weeks to respond.

 

So on green and mean's advice i guess i should just wait for the order for recovery...but will the bailiffs definitely not come come before this :S ?

 

the worst thing is the car in question is registered under my girlfriends name and at her parents address - Don't want bailiffs coming to their house XO.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Alchemist07

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

To whom is the latest documentation addressed and how did you get to have it?

 

As I see it, you are facing two difficulties.

 

The NTO sets out the manner and methodology by which the owner can make representations against it. From the LAs perspective they did not receive such representations. However, I believe that a reasonable LA, having provided an e-mail address, should have treated the e-mail you sent as having been sent by or on behalf of the owner.

 

You are not the owner so are not entitled to pursue the matter unless you can demonstrate you are acting as the owner's representative in this matter.

 

I do think that you will probably have to wait for the Order for Recovery and proceed on the basis as set out in this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?131121-Council-Parking-Fine....-but-NO-PCN-or-NTO-received-Advice!(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

I believe you will need to say that you made representations against the NTO but no response was receieved.

[green_and_mean]

the worst thing is the car in question is registered under my girlfriends name and at her parents address - Don't want bailiffs coming to their house XO.

 

Uh oh!! you have got me worried now!! Who appealled you or your g/f? If the appeal was from you then technically they can ignore it only the owner/keeper/hirer can make reps.

[Ibsys]

So...

 

I ended up sending them an email only to hear from them 1 month later through the post with a charge notice and a demand for a £180 fine.

 

They claim they never got the email so when i did get in contact with them and email them a few more time, they are saying that now the time i had to reply to the NTO is over (30 days) so they cant consider my representions anymore.

 

Clearly the issue is wether they got my email or not, i sent it from a hotmail address which i have used to contact them before and there was no problem that time (they responded by letter-which is why i waited to hear from them by post). I have a record of the email in my sent items so in that sense I have proof, but is this enough, and what do i do, they are threatening bailiffs... :S

 

I had 3 PCNs from Westminster, all cancelled! I did not appeal using their PATAS/NPAS system. I sent them a letter pointing out the Judgement by Lord Justice Laws onthe Bill of Rights 1689 which outlaws PCNs using the Road Traffic Act 1991 under which PCNs are issued. I have the template if you want it. It is based around the hierachy of laws (Ordinary statutes and Laws with special status-Bill of Rights)

If the Ordinary statute does not expressly mention the Bill of Rights in the text, it does not repeal it so must fall by the wayside. The Bill of Rights 1689 says this ; Promises of grants, fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void" This means you don't have to pay a fine if you have not been convicted of it. Northampton County Court will say you cannot get a conviction for something which is not a criminal offence and they have not got a Judge. Whence, all 3 PCNs were cancelled. (along with 8 more which have also been cancelled-not all mine)

Bailiffs cannot collect without a court order and they need a conviction in a court of law before a fine is legal. Also, lines without T ends are incomplete lines under the Road Traffic Act 1984 (as amended, General Directions ,section 20, sub section 6-diagrams)

Give them hell!

[green_and_mean]

Bailiffs cannot collect without a court order and they need a conviction in a court of law before a fine is legal. Also, lines without T ends are incomplete lines under the Road Traffic Act 1984 (as amended, General Directions ,section 20, sub section 6-diagrams)

Give them hell!

 

Except Parking is decriminalised so there is no fine and no conviction, its a civil debt. I think you will find all County Courts including Northampton do have Judges besides you do not need a Judge to get a criminal conviction you can be convicted at Magistrates Court not that its relevant here but if you are going to have crack pot theories its always good to be factually correct.