Unpaid Penalty Charge

[sushi-lover]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could help because bothe the Council and the Court have said conflicting things

 

I have just recieved a letter from the bailiffs titled "The enforcement of road traffic debts (certified bailiffs) regulations 1993"

 

it states that I committed a driving offence and that a Warrant of execution has been issuded and I should pay up or else

 

On contacting the council concerned we have discovered that all correspondence was sent after I moved from my previous address which is why I only knew about this at this late stage.

 

Northampton have sent me the Form PE2 and PE3 and were very helpful as i can prove I had moved.

 

My question is this...can the bailiffs come to this new address in the meantime as the warrant of execution was served on my previous address?

 

Northampton Traffic enforcement and my local County Court say No but Ealing Council insist that the bailiffs can come in and take my stuff.

 

secondly Im not sure on the procedure because again the County Court said that they couldnt enforce me to pay.

 

 

any ideas?

 

Thanks

[Jamberson]

My question is this...can the bailiffs come to this new address in the meantime as the warrant of execution was served on my previous address?

 

 

You've opened up a can of worms. Opinion is split on this - this is my understanding, though others will no doubt disagree. Technically and legally,. the bailiffs cannot execute the warrant at the new address. However they can clamp your car whenever and wherever they happen to spot it. So unofficially they come looking for you at the new address, though they probably shouldn't, and lo and behold, there's the car outside, and on goes the clamp. You're stuffed when that happens. What can you do except pay up? So to all intents and purposes, they can execute at the new address.

 

secondly Im not sure on the procedure because again the County Court said that they couldnt enforce me to pay.

 

 

They can't literally force you to pay - but they can tow your car away and sell it, which is the same thing.

[sushi-lover]

Thanks Jamberson

Its not my car, it belongs to Motorbility. does that make a difference?

Should I proceed with the PE2 and PE3?

 

Sushi-Lover

[sushi-lover]

Attached is the bailiffs letter

[sushi-lover]

sorry its so small...cant seem to enlarge it!

[Jamberson]

If it's a Motorbility car, they could still clamp it - they are entitled to clamp in order to establish owner details. You can then show them the relevant paperwork, and they will have to release it. Do not let them into your house though!!

 

Regardless of the Motorbility issue, you are still liable for the debt. Their next step will be to try and gain access to your home, to claim goods to the value. You do not have to let them in.

 

I would say yes - file the forms and try and get it sorted before it goes that far.

[sushi-lover]

Thanks Jamberson

I dont have a clue what the offence was for, just what was said on this letter the bailiff sent.

will proceed with the forms. i have them signed will post

Sushi-Lover

[lamma]

Shouldn't you have used a TE9 ?

 

Some recent posts on here by tomtubby (who is THE expert). Have a look./

 

the council lied - provided you have stopped the action using the right forms.

[sushi-lover]

Hi Lamma,

thank you for your imput. When I rand Northampton they sent me the out of time dec forms PE2 PE3 which I had to explain why I hadnt replied to original PCN.

What is a TE9?

Am I also correct in thinking that a car with a blue badge cant be clamped in this case or did I read it wrong? ( which is quite possible because I have read so much here over the past few nights)

Can they inforce the warrant if its for another address? and does this mean I have a CCJ for this?

sorry so many questions

Ive already started looking at TomTubby's posts but thanks for steering me in that direction

Its much appreciated

Sushi-Lover

[hallowitch]

Its not my car, it belongs to Mobility. does that make a difference?

 

as this car does not belong to you it belongs to the mobility no enforcement action can be taken against it

they cant levy distress against it and they cant clamp it

[hallowitch]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?252408

[sushi-lover]

Thanks for that Hallowitch

Ive looked at the TE9 and please correct me if Im wrong but it seems to be for a parking offence.

I have allegedly commited a "driving in a bus lane" offence is that why I was sent a PE2 and PE3 ??

I had to go to the local county court with those two forms and swear an affidivit that I was telling the truth and get them to witness my signature

Hope I have done enough

Sushi-Lover

[sushi-lover]

Hello everyone

Just an update, things are getting abit difficult. Ive sent the forms for Northampton to do their bit but in the meantime the bailiffs have been and threatened to take the car, I explained out of the window that it wasnt my car but he said that the borough council had emailed him to proceed...he also said he could execute the warrent at this new address even though it wasnt the address on the original warrent and that he would be back. I told him nicely about the PE2 and PE3 but I guess he didnt do nice because he still said he would take the car. he wants £456.87 of which his costs are £271.87

can I drive my car??? it says any person removing it will be liable to penalties?? I have hospital appointments as Im sick. can he really execute this warrent at my new address.??

 

Many thanks

[crem]

have you posted a copy of this thread in the bailiff section or at least put a link back to this thread from there?

 

tomtubby should be able to confirm whether they can use a new address on the warrant, although I suspect not. (not that that ever stops them it seems!)

[sushi-lover]

Hi Crem...thanks

No I havent posted this anywhere else, I will attempt to. didnt wish to put it in the wrong place or repeat anything already discussed

have spoken to Northampton in the meantime who were really helpful and indicated (although havent advised) that it couldnt be executed at this new address. They have also told me that Ealing Borough Council havent applied for a change of address either.

With any luck the PE2 and PE3 process will take over.

Im not panicking too much but hate this having to keep doors locked etc and thankfully my children are away.

 

Sushi-lover

[sushi-lover]

BUMP.

 

Hello all, Im bumping this thread because I have had a response from the court saying that Ealing Borough Council have refused to accept the application to file an out of time statutory declaration.

 

It was referred to the court for a decision without a hearing under Part 75.5 (1) of the Civil procedure Rules.

 

It seems that I should do a N244.

 

Ealing Borough Council states that I should have notified the DVLA of the change of address, but in my defence I told them it was a motobility car and that I dont hold the log book. I have written to the DVLA to check if I am responsible or the motorbilty scheme

Ealing say that they sent the PCN notice to the adress provided by the DVLA and that it was my fault I didnt recieve it because of the above.

 

They also state that i should have got my mail from my previous address, but this was not possible due to problems with the landlady

 

I also noticed that on Ealing borough council case status report they still have my old address even though all this paperwork was sent to my new address.

 

do you think it worth my while to do this N244. ?

should I pay for the hearing before the judge or without a hearing? and can I get the fees back sucessfully.?

It also says that I might incur extra costs? what are these? and are these expensive?

 

I still havent seen what this offense was for because they havent sent me the original PCN notice.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Sushi Lover

[Jamberson]

Because this is not for parking I am not 100 percent certain - but I think this is how it works: The council can refuse your application, and they have done. So you can then go for an N244 before a judge. You do have to pay - about £70 or £80 it costs, but you can also claim costs if you win, so you can claim it back. You have a good chance of winning it.

 

Regardless of "should have told DVLA", the fact remains that you did not receive prior paperwork and have a perfectly reasonable explanation for why you did not resolve the matter before the bailiffs became involved. This is what you need to show with the N244.

 

Assuming you are successful, bailiffs will cease and their charges be wiped. Then you need to deal with the original charge.

[lamma]

Just where in the regulations does the council get to decide on witness statements/OOTs ?

[sushi-lover]

Thankyou Jamberson I will go ahead i think with the N244

 

Lamma if I can I will post the correspondence so you can see the paperwork. i think their decision was whether they were willing to accept the out of time statutory declaration for the pcn. and that was their reason for not accepting.

 

re the bailiffs, I telephoned them and backed it up with a letter after speaking to my solicitor and they backed off.

I basically informed them of my intentions regarding my appeal. that it wasnt my car and if they removed it or touched it and they damaged it I would hold them totally responsible. I also told them that their warrent was for a different address and that I wasnt going to deal with them, and also informed them about my poor health as a prior warning, its triggered by stress and that if I had an asthma attack, in their presence and they didnt call an ambulance, they would then be held responsible for any complications including death as a result of their actions.

somehow it worked for now!

thankyou both

[Jamberson]

Just where in the regulations does the council get to decide on witness statements/OOTs ?

 

Don't know. But that's how it works. TEC send the paperwork to the council, and if it's out of time, they can choose whether to accept it.

 

Unless you know something you're not telling us

[lamma]

I think the regs say that the TEC is responsible. the Gen Regs I think.

[sushi-lover]

Lamma, I think Ive got you confused...i do that alot sorry

 

Its gone to the council and they refused...I was quoting their response about the DVLA etc and being responsible for updating records

 

then the TEC have ordered that

1. "under rule 23.8 of the Civil Procedure rules the Court will deal with the aplication for leave to file a Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement out of time without a hearing because the court does not consider a hearing at Northampton would be appropriate

2. The Application for leave to file a statutory declaration/witness statement to be REFUSED "

 

I have now called TEC who have advised re a N244 and I can get my fees back because I recieve benefits.

The DVLA have confirmed that there is no legislation that covers the driver of a motobility scheme car to be responsible for the logbook...Im awaiting written confirmation

finally I have my tenancy agreement proving the moving date and a letter from the Royal Brompton Hospital where I spent the first week of my tenancy as I was ill...

 

hopefully this will prove that

1. I didnt recieve the letters

2. I did all I should and could with the circumstances regarding collecting my mail etc.

 

do you think thats enough??

[lamma]

You'll have to go N244 for sure. Don't forget to ask for the fee to be refunded !

I still think passing the OOTs to the council is outwith the regs but I need to find an hour or two to have a read and search.

[sushi-lover]

Lamma Thankyou so much for your support.... am doing the forms right now

Sushi

[sushi-lover]

Hi everyone.

Further update. I am due in court on the 28th of this month to let a judge decide whether Ealing Borough Council should, accept that it was out of my control and I didnt recieve the PCN. (I think accept my out of time declaration)

 

I have submitted my defence, however do I need to request anything regarding evidence from the other side ?

I have countered what they have said in my defence eg: not my responsibility to inform DVLA of a change of address as I dont hold the V5 cert, the fact mobility knew of my change of address,My new tenancy agreement, and hopefully if in time a hospital discharge sheet stating I was in hospital following my move so I couldnt go and get my post from my former address

 

Do you also advise writing to EBC one more time in the hope that they will see sense, or is it too late at this stage to halt the court case.

I have no problems with going to court to prove my case, but I am not well and mobility is an issue

 

Thanks

Sushi