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confus

Need Help Urgently Please

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Advice for family member please

 

 

I will try to keep this as short as possible even though its complicated

 

My daughter in law, who is seperated from my son and has two children receives:

 

Long Term Higher Rate Incapacity Benefit

Disability Living Allowance Lower Rates (for herself)

She does permitted work under IB (Just ironing at a very low rate of pay, as she feels its theraputic and that in some way she is contributing - she has servere mental health problems)

Child Tax Credit

Working Tax Credit

Disability Living Allowance for child (higher rates)

Disability Part of CTC for her son

 

This week she has received some forms in the post, from Incapacity Benefit & Severe Disablement Allowance

 

One states Changes Which May Effect Your Benefit - "It has been some time since you told us about you and your family and the money you have coming in" and asks her to list all benefits - not a problem

 

The other states "Claiming extra Incapacity Benefit, Servere Disablement Allowance or Maternity Allowance for Another Adult"

 

Am I correct in asuming that she does not have to fill in this second one as she has no need to make a claim for another adult?

 

Also, is it normal for these forms to be sent out? Or is it some way of taking her off the benefits she is claiming and possibly changing her to another benefit? With all thats going on with the Government its hard to understand exactly what is happening/what she should be doing etc.

 

 

 

 

She works self employed from 6pm - 10pm 5 days a week, as I said ironing for a very small charge. She finds this theraputic, not my idea of that but if it suits......................She also likes to think she is contributing to her family becuase she feels guilty that she cannot provide for them herself fully and does not like living off the state. I do her self assessments so I do know this. Now before anybody jumps on me and asks why if she can work, she is claiming benefits, may I point out that she NEVER leaves the house, she cannot step foot outside the door so much as her mental health problems are. Her children are taken to school by taxis and brought home again, she has a CPN visiting her often and I think *though am not 100% sure* that she agreed to do this so she could claim WTC as my son does not give her maintenance as such but pays half the mortgage as he wants his children to have a stable home and its an investment for them both as she has no other family. She could not afford her half of the mortgage, all the bills, food, taxi bills etc etc etc if she did not claim WTC. She would love to be able to work full time in a working environment.

 

As far as I am aware she can work how many hours she wants if she does not earn over £20 a week. Apparently that is what the DWP told her and are aware of, she filled in a form that they required when she started.

 

Now I have been advised that the DWP will not agree that she works for in effect, approx £1 per hour and after doing many searches I cannot find anything that states how much she is expected to earn and also advised that the DWP will look at this negatively and possibly suspect fraud. May I point out that this advice was not given proffessionaly. Whilst I undertsand that amount is very small I must be honest and say it is 100% true and she is doing something that helps her in some way. If this is going to be investigated as suggested to me, I am not sure I know why in honesty as I cannot see her doing anything that is actually wrong and I would like some advice asap before she goes into meltdown. Surely is somebody is self-employed it is up to them how much they charge, however little and it is not that she charges £1 per hour but a certain amount for a black bin liner full that takes her hours to do.

 

When my son and DIL split up she was under investigation by the TCO as his name was still on the mortgage and still is, she provided all documents and explanation to a very nice compliance officer at the TCO (also talked about self employment and nothing was mentioned about this being wrong), sent lots of documents and all turned out fine and she continued to receive all her benefits.

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Does you daughter work on a self employed basis for a company who refer clients to her, or does she advertise for the work herself. How does she get the work? Is it delivered to her house?

 

Yes she can work and earn up to £20 per week for an unlimited period but the DWP do consider whether or not that working for 20 hours a week for only £20 would be reasonable. They can assume that the minimun wage is paid.

 

I asked if she was getting work through a company as it would me more likely that they would assume that she was receiving the minimun wage.

 

If she not connected to a company I would say that she would need to provide business accounts which need to be sent to HMRC. DWP will need some proof of her income/expenditure before accepting that she only earns £20 per week.

 

I've just re-read your post - how on earth does she get Working Tax credit - what work has been declared to HMRC in order to get this?

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Does you daughter work on a self employed basis for a company who refer clients to her, or does she advertise for the work herself. How does she get the work? Is it delivered to her house?

 

Yes she can work and earn up to £20 per week for an unlimited period but the DWP do consider whether or not that working for 20 hours a week for only £20 would be reasonable. They can assume that the minimun wage is paid.

 

I asked if she was getting work through a company as it would me more likely that they would assume that she was receiving the minimun wage.

 

If she not connected to a company I would say that she would need to provide business accounts which need to be sent to HMRC. DWP will need some proof of her income/expenditure before accepting that she only earns £20 per week.

 

I've just re-read your post - how on earth does she get Working Tax credit - what work has been declared to HMRC in order to get this?

 

She works on a self employed basis by herself, not through a company, she works approx 16-18 hours. She advertises in shop windows which we put in for her.

 

I am pretty sure she has not got any business accounts, I wouldn't think she would think she would have to. She has a UTR and does a return every year.

 

 

I'm really confused and unsure of how to advise her

She claims WTC as she works over 16 or 18 hours per week, the TCO take both her taxable IB and self employed income into account

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I think that the best way to go would be to contact the DWP and ask that they send a form to declare permitted work. (I think that it is a PW1 form). As she is self-employed I am pretty certain that she would be asked to supply business accounts.

 

The decision maker who would decide on her claim for Incapacity Benefit will more than likely ask for them before they reach a decision as to how much she earns. I have never come across someone claiming Incapacity Benefit as being unfit for work and also claiming WTC. I suspect that HMRC would not see anything wrong with this but at the end of the day it is not HMRC who pays her benefits.

 

You also need to consider whether or not the work that she is doing MAY impact on the claims for DLA that they have. She is claiming lower rate care, part of which suggests that she is unable to cook a meal for herself - yet she is capable of taking in ironing. She is also capable of claiming for a child who is entitled to high rate DLA. How does she look after him if she is not cook a meal for herself.

 

I am not asking these questions to be awkward but if an investigator started to look at the whole picture - it would seem that they are not compatible. At the moment it would appear the DLA,IB and HMRC are all looking at her claim in isolation.

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I think that the best way to go would be to contact the DWP and ask that they send a form to declare permitted work. (I think that it is a PW1 form). As she is self-employed I am pretty certain that she would be asked to supply business accounts.

 

The decision maker who would decide on her claim for Incapacity Benefit will more than likely ask for them before they reach a decision as to how much she earns. I have never come across someone claiming Incapacity Benefit as being unfit for work and also claiming WTC. I suspect that HMRC would not see anything wrong with this but at the end of the day it is not HMRC who pays her benefits.

 

You also need to consider whether or not the work that she is doing MAY impact on the claims for DLA that they have. She is claiming lower rate care, part of which suggests that she is unable to cook a meal for herself - yet she is capable of taking in ironing. She is also capable of claiming for a child who is entitled to high rate DLA. How does she look after him if she is not cook a meal for herself.

 

I am not asking these questions to be awkward but if an investigator started to look at the whole picture - it would seem that they are not compatible. At the moment it would appear the DLA,IB and HMRC are all looking at her claim in isolation.

 

Thank you for your reply, she has filled in a Permitted Work Form for the DWP. She is currently in receipt of IB and has been for a number of years. The HMRC investigated about 3 years ago and she has had no problem since. She just received the forms week which are "Changes we need to know about" and the box ticked is the one that states "Its been some time since you told us about your family etc, we need to know about any changes" and this asks for a list of benefits which isn't a problem (I Don't think) and the other is about "Incapacity, SDA or Maternity Allowance for another adult" which obviously isn't releveant.

 

We have no reason to think that DLA, IB and HMRC are all looking at her claims in isolation, just the form from IB, should there be any reason to think differently do you know?

 

I do realise that this is unusual and complicated, she does though, have a lot of help from us and certain friends with regards looking after herself and her children, when she is ironing its just like she switches off and is in a world of her own, I don't know how to explain it ..................

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She just received the forms week which are "Changes we need to know about" and the box ticked is the one that states "Its been some time since you told us about your family etc, we need to know about any changes" and this asks for a list of benefits which isn't a problem (I Don't think) and the other is about "Incapacity, SDA or Maternity Allowance for another adult" which obviously isn't releveant.

 

We have no reason to think that DLA, IB and HMRC are all looking at her claims in isolation, just the form from IB, should there be any reason to think differently do you know?

 

 

It's just a review form. The IB section are meant to send it every year but it often gets missed. Nothing to worry about, but it does have to be returned otherwise the IB could be suspended.

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It's just a review form. The IB section are meant to send it every year but it often gets missed. Nothing to worry about, but it does have to be returned otherwise the IB could be suspended.

 

Thank you so much, I gather you think there will be nothing for her to worry about then:-?

 

Thank you all for your replies, your time is appreciated, what a lovely place this is.

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hi Confus,

 

There seems to be something wrong here, and unless the rules of permitted work have changed your daughter in law I dont think should be doing over 16 hours a week,

and I didnt think you could claim IB and WTC but I may be wrong and permitted work is allowed for twelve months only

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/FinancialSupport/IncapacityBenefit/DG_10020667

 

 

The forms she has been sent are standard issue for IB ignore the ones for other adults she may claim for as she doesnt claim for any other adults. she needs to complete the one in relation to herself and return it or her claim will close.

 

She is doing well with her ironing buisness and its great that it helps her, :)

Edited by MIKEY DABODEE

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hi Confus,

 

There seems to be something wrong here, and unless the rules of permitted work have changed your daughter in law I dont think should be doing over 16 hours a week,

and I didnt think you could claim IB and WTC but I may be wrong and permitted work is allowed for twelve months only

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/FinancialSupport/IncapacityBenefit/DG_10020667

 

 

The forms she has been sent are standard issue for IB ignore the ones for other adults she may claim for as she doesnt claim for any other adults. she needs to complete the one in relation to herself and return it or her claim will close.

 

She is doing well with her ironing buisness and its great that it helps her, :)

 

Hello, thank you for your kind words. I have read the link to which you referred to and as far as I am aware this is what she is doing

 

work and earn up to £20 a week, at any time, for as long as you are receiving Incapacity Benefit

 

Nobody has told her she cannot claim WTC as well as IB, the Compliance Officer from the HMRC who investigated her some time ago never mentioned it so I just don't know, I'm trying so hard to help, but I suppose we will find out when she returns the form, my only concern is that they will make out she is doing something wrong when she is quite sure she isnt. The DWP are aware of the permitted work as above, though they have not contacted her about it for some time. Also, I remember once a year or so ago when because somebody had stolen her debit card, and the TCs had already been paid into her account (or were on the way) she phoned the DWP for a Crisis Loan so she had some cash until her new card arrived, they phoned her with a decision and she was told, quite curtly as I understand, that she couldn't have the loan as the TC payments were on the way, the advisor even stated the amounts so the DWP were aware of the WTC then? If asked she would be perfectly honest in what she claims and receives, I just worry for her and that somebody will imply or say she has done something wrong when I know and she understands she hasn't. Its all a bit of a mess really and as she is like my own daughter I just want to help, she is a lovely lass, trying hard to overcome her illness and her children are a credit to her. My son still loves her, and she him, he just felt he couldn't get anywhere with her though is still a big part of her and the childrens lives. Such a shame, I would love to see them reunited but as I said she is trying so hard and it breaks my heart to see her worried so. Mental illness is so misunderstood and it breaks my heart to see her suffering.

 

Thank you for your kind reply, it is refreshing to find people who will help and care.

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Hi - I've had a look at the regulations relating to permitted work. You can find them here if you fancy wading through them.....

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dmgch13.pdf

 

They are not an easy read - the bit about permitted work starts from paragraph 13882.

 

I think it will come down to whether or not the decision maker considers that your daughter is running a self-employed business or whether or not they consider that it is so minimal that it does not fall within the regulations. There is another guide which looks at whether or not a person should be considered to have earnings from self-employment and these are here ;

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dmgch15.pdf

 

I would say that there will be absolutely no point in ringing the DWP as this is not something that the people who answer the phones will deal with every day and they will probably not know the answer.

 

To put your minds at rest I would suggest that the best thing to do would be to complete the form that you have received (is it a BF85A?) with all the information, put a letter with it if needed, tell them about the Working Tax credit, the hours that she works and the income that she gets from her ironing. Ask them for confirmation in writing that everything she is doing is within the permitted work regulations and that her current rates of benefit are correct.

 

No-one is saying that she shouldn't be doing this as it obviously helps, but purely to protect your daughter in the future should anyone feel the need to report her for doing some work then it is best that it has been looked at now and then you all know that there is no need to worry about it.

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I do realise that this is unusual and complicated, she does though, have a lot of help from us and certain friends with regards looking after herself and her children, when she is ironing its just like she switches off and is in a world of her own, I don't know how to explain it ..................

 

I am finding very hard to understand with all the benefits your friend is receiving and all the help she has with friends and family to look after her and her children because she cannot work you are telling me she is worrying herself or somewhat manage to focus on doing ironing for other people as a job for just earning £20 a week what about doing her own ironing wouldn't that give her the same cutting off from the world surely ironing for other people would give her some form of stress I do not wish to upset anyone just voicing my confusion and it does worry me when people comes across such a thread and think ill of people on benefits.

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hi Confus,

 

There seems to be something wrong here, and unless the rules of permitted work have changed your daughter in law I dont think should be doing over 16 hours a week,

and I didnt think you could claim IB and WTC but I may be wrong and permitted work is allowed for twelve months only

 

Permitted Work Lower Limit. Work indefinitely as long as you earn less than £20 a week. The minute it goes over £20 then the normal Permitted Work rules kick in such as less than 16 hours per week, earn no more than £93 (current rate) & it can only be done for a year.

 

The problems I could see are minimum wage & keeping accounts of earnings but as Confus said this has already been ok'd by the IB section I ignored it, although I do think it could become a problem at some point in the future.

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Permitted Work Lower Limit. Work indefinitely as long as you earn less than £20 a week. The minute it goes over £20 then the normal Permitted Work rules kick in such as less than 16 hours per week, earn no more than £93 (current rate) & it can only be done for a year.

 

The problems I could see are minimum wage & keeping accounts of earnings but as Confus said this has already been ok'd by the IB section I ignored it, although I do think it could become a problem at some point in the future.

 

How would she keep accounts, as its something I have never come across I wouldn't know how to advise/help her in doing this. She has declared her SE income to the HMRC for a few years now and paid tax according (on her SE income & taxable IB). If you are self-employed do you have to work for a minimum wage?

Please understand I am not questioing you, just trying to get things clear in laymans terms as it were.

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I do realise that this is unusual and complicated, she does though, have a lot of help from us and certain friends with regards looking after herself and her children, when she is ironing its just like she switches off and is in a world of her own, I don't know how to explain it ..................

 

I am finding very hard to understand with all the benefits your friend is receiving and all the help she has with friends and family to look after her and her children because she cannot work you are telling me she is worrying herself or somewhat manage to focus on doing ironing for other people as a job for just earning £20 a week what about doing her own ironing wouldn't that give her the same cutting off from the world surely ironing for other people would give her some form of stress I do not wish to upset anyone just voicing my confusion and it does worry me when people comes across such a thread and think ill of people on benefits.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean but I will try and answer, she does do her own ironing and as she does it well and enjoys this when she enjoys little else, it seemed to her to be a good way to earn an extra few pounds a week. I suppose in a certain way it does cut her off but I think without it to concentrate on she couldn't cope. It's hard to try and describe somebodys elses illness but for example, if she watches a programme on TV, she first has to start taping it and whilst watching, she keeps having to rewind it to understand what is going on in the programme, a half hour programme can take her up to approx 2 hours to watch which she finds very frustrating, the same with reading, she can read one page, go on to the next and then have to start again. Whilst she is ironing, she is doing one item at a time and concentrate on that one piece and she can tell the differences between piles - ones she has done and ones she hasn't. So whilst she is at home mostly in the evenings when the children are ready and going to bed, this is something she can do without experciening frustration as I said she can't watch TV or read. Doing irnoning is not stressful for her, it helps her and she is proud of herself for being able to do something and no matter how small she feels staisfaction that she is providing something for her family.

 

It is so hard to understand, also for me and it is difficult to explain. Sometimes I am at a loss but I do my best and whilst my explanation might not make sense, I am so sorry but I do not know how else to explain it.

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I'm purely thinking from an IB point of view, but if she could just keep a record of hours & earnings (a basic diary would do) if her work was ever questioned she could use it as evidence.

 

Without it an IB decision maker MAY have to estimate earnings using minimum wage rates.

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I do realise that this is unusual and complicated, she does though, have a lot of help from us and certain friends with regards looking after herself and her children, when she is ironing its just like she switches off and is in a world of her own, I don't know how to explain it ..................

 

I am finding very hard to understand with all the benefits your friend is receiving and all the help she has with friends and family to look after her and her children because she cannot work you are telling me she is worrying herself or somewhat manage to focus on doing ironing for other people as a job for just earning £20 a week what about doing her own ironing wouldn't that give her the same cutting off from the world surely ironing for other people would give her some form of stress I do not wish to upset anyone just voicing my confusion and it does worry me when people comes across such a thread and think ill of people on benefits.

 

It's easy to understand :D

 

A lot of people find doing simple repetitive tasks is almost a kin to meditating. This means it is the only time they can be happy as the rest of the world is effectively forgotten about. We all do it to some extent most of us without even realising it.

 

It's just a shame now that things like this which a few years ago would have been seen as a valuable therapeutic tool to help rehabilitation and would have been actively encouraged. Now means that there is nothing wrong with them, whilst branding them a burden on society and a scrounger. How times have changed eh?

 

Time for some therapeutic hoovering I think :p

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I'm purely thinking from an IB point of view, but if she could just keep a record of hours & earnings (a basic diary would do) if her work was ever questioned she could use it as evidence.

 

Without it an IB decision maker MAY have to estimate earnings using minimum wage rates.

 

Thank you again, I am sure we could manage that between us. Should we backdate it to the beginning of this tax year do you think? I apologise for all the questions but your help is invalubale and very much appreciated. I only wish her own parents were around to help.

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It's easy to understand :D

 

A lot of people find doing simple repetitive tasks is almost a kin to meditating. This means it is the only time they can be happy as the rest of the world is effectively forgotten about. We all do it to some extent most of us without even realising it.

 

It's just a shame now that things like this which a few years ago would have been seen as a valuable therapeutic tool to help rehabilitation and would have been actively encouraged. Now means that there is nothing wrong with them, whilst branding them a burden on society and a scrounger. How times have changed eh?

 

Time for some therapeutic hoovering I think :p

 

Thank you being so understanding, its lovely to know somebody does understand and has empathy, thanks and I agree. If it helps her (or anyone) than what possible harm could it do.

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Permitted Work Lower Limit. Work indefinitely as long as you earn less than £20 a week. The minute it goes over £20 then the normal Permitted Work rules kick in such as less than 16 hours per week, earn no more than £93 (current rate) & it can only be done for a year.

 

The problems I could see are minimum wage & keeping accounts of earnings but as Confus said this has already been ok'd by the IB section I ignored it, although I do think it could become a problem at some point in the future.

 

thanks for explaining the permitted work rules :)

 

So it is possible then to work for twenty hours, for twenty pounds and claim working tax credits because you are doing over sixteen hours and keep your IB

 

Confus you are a brilliant father in law but people seem to be taking advantage of your daughter in law, I know it helps her, but people paying her that per hour is bordering on slave labour.

 

How much an hour does she charge.?

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thanks for explaining the permitted work rules :)

 

So it is possible then to work for twenty hours, for twenty pounds and claim working tax credits because you are doing over sixteen hours and keep your IB

 

Confus you are a brilliant father in law but people seem to be taking advantage of your daughter in law, I know it helps her, but people paying her that per hour is bordering on slave labour.

 

How much an hour does she charge.?

 

Thank you for your kind comments, she doesn't charge per hour, just per black bin liner full which takes her as long as it takes her, there is no telling, its very hard but I would say one of these bags takes her about 5 hours, including starching. It does take her a long time because she is of course on many medication that kind of slows her down. I understand your comment about people taking advantage of her (may I just state that my wife does our ironing) but what can I do? It makes her content, she enjoys it as well as the ways I have stated before and I am loathe to try and take it away from her, she feels like she is achieving something which is a big boost when mental illness can bring her down to a very, very low level within 5 minutes. I wouldn't class myself as a brilliant father in law, I love her like she is my own daughter, as also my son still loves her and of course I adore my Grandchildren. If it was not for us she would have no-one and I wouldn't dream of abandoning her, she has been through so much and she is a fantastic girl.

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How would she keep accounts, as its something I have never come across I wouldn't know how to advise/help her in doing this. She has declared her SE income to the HMRC for a few years now and paid tax according (on her SE income & taxable IB). If you are self-employed do you have to work for a minimum wage?

Please understand I am not questioing you, just trying to get things clear in laymans terms as it were.

 

Hi, maybe I can shed a little light.

 

You cannot connect DWP & HMRC. Each has it's own agenda, rules and regulations relating to self employment.

 

Take HMRC first, provided it is a genuine business and that she is registered, has accounting records, prepares accounts and tax returns they will accept it.

 

To receive WTC you either have to work more than 16 hrs pw or 30 hrs pw, depending if she qualifies for the disability element. Both are classed as full time employment.

 

So receiving the disability element and working for over 16 hrs pw, she will be entitled to full WTC.

What ever profit she makes - she makes. She could make a loss or a profit! But in her case she has to make sure that her net profit does not exceed the equivalent of £20 pw. That is not at all difficult. There are no rules or regulations that say she must 'clear' an amount equivalent to the minimum wage.

 

Now having said that as far as ESA is concerned, provided she earns less than £20 pw she can keep all of her benefit.

That is covered by the Permitted Work rules.

 

Consequently, you can legally have somebody in receipt of ESA and provided they keep within the Permitted Work rules, earn £20 pw and receive maximum WTC.

 

This is a fairly well known way of maximising income whilst at the same time getting a business up and running for the future.

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I am sure we could manage that between us. Should we backdate it to the beginning of this tax year do you think?

 

Go back as far as she can remember. Hopefully she'll never need it & she's just covering her back in case something crops up.

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Hello again

 

I thought I would write here as my DIL has posted on another forum and had nothing but abuse. She is now on the ESA Working Related Group and is still ironing to her hearts content. She has just filed her self assessment and paid some tax.

 

Now she is very upset and concerned about the comments she has received on the other forum who have implied that she is a scounger. They have said that HMRC are now on the lookout for anubody working self-employed and earning less than the minimum wage, which as I have said before she does. They have implied she will be prosicuted by HMRC as they will believe she is only is doing it to claim WTC.

 

She has no records apart from her self assessments but could quite easily make some copies of receipts in one of those books that leaves the print on another page, should she start doing this now, if so, what else should she be doing. She doesn't advertise as she doesn't need any more clients than the ones she has as that would take her above the £20 ceiling for permitted work?

 

If anybody could help it would be much appreciated as I am going to have to sit down with her and help. Even though she is in reciept of tax credits, she is self employed for her own personnal reasons as previously mentioned and if I though for a minute she was doing anything wrong then I would stop her and she would listen to me.

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Have read through the thread. I can relate to the ironing thing, I used to love ironing! And many moons ago did some for other people too.

BUT, I don't see why she doesn't up her prices, claim the tax credits still, let Tax credits know she is working 30 hours a week, if she is ironing 6 nights a week for 5 hours...

She really is being taken advantage of by her clients. So little money for your laminate floor becoming an ice rink with all that starch spraying!

Tax credits pay you a bit more once you're working 30 hours by the way.

Then she won't need to worry about HMRC kicking off about the minimum wage thing.

I also know someone that has actually made -1500 profit in her first year of self employment, & claiming for the 30 hours tax credits, she has also heard the rumour about them putting their foot down about low earning self employed work. But so far it's not happening is it.

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Thank you for your kind reply, I do understand what you are saying but if I am correct she wouldn't be able to claim the ESA she currently receives and to be honest I don't know if she is capable of working 30 hours and keep accounts for that amount of work.

 

As regards people taking advantage of her due to what she charges, that is her choice since she cannot earn over £20 per week but I do agree but I am frightened of trying to make a stop because its so important to her to know she is contributing to the household, she saves the £20 to pay for things for the children and of course she can iron in the dead of night because she cannot for sleep for more than 2 hours per night.

 

The forum she posted on were downright nasty to be honest and have told her she is going to be investigated at some point and now she is out of her mind, which doesn't help at all.

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