Job Seeker's Allowance stopped due to failing to apply for a job that I did apply for.

[Win2Kuser]

Hi,

 

I recently (early July) had a form through the post basically saying that I had been given an opportunity of a job offer in June that I had failed to apply for, and to provide information as to why I failed to apply for the job.

 

I had previously tried getting hold of the company involved, but the telephone number I had been given did not work. I therefore used my initiative, and sent a covering letter and a copy of my CV to the company involved, but never heard anything back.

 

On the letter I sent back to the job centre, I explained that I had tried to get hold of the company, couldn't, so sent the letter and CV; I even enclosed a copy of the covering letter I sent.

 

I had heard nothing since, and even in the last couple of Job Seeker sign-on's, I have mentioned it, but was told that there was nothing on their systems.

 

Today (21st August), I have received a letter from the DWP saying that a decision had been made and that my Job Seekers Allowance has been stopped from the 14th August.

 

I have tried ringing them, but they are closed for the weekend (and presumably Monday), so now I'm worried what will happen.

 

It is a joint claim for myself and my partner, and we have 2 small children (a 2 1/2 year old, and a 5 week old!). We would be in the proverbial brown smelly stuff with no money.

 

How can they make a decision like that, when I have proved I did apply for the position. The only thing I can think of is that the company involved lost or didn't get my letter/cv and the job centre has asked them and just assumed I didn't send it Can they even prove that? I take it, it's a guilty until proven innocent!

 

We also get housing benefit and council tax allowance because we're on Job Seekers allowance, what happens to that?

 

Any ideas on what I should do? I'm worried sick now.

 

Thanks in advance...

[ErikaPNP]

What?! Sanction I can understand where there is a clear breach of the JSAg, but in this case, you did not breach it. You went further than most by writing in when you found the phone number not to be in use. You simply must appeal against this decision. Use the form attached to this post. If you don't have a printer to print the form, collect one from your local jobcentre - ask for a GL24. It needs to be submitted no later than one month from the date on the decision letter. Also use this guide for help in challenging their decision in your appeal - use quotes which could be applied to your own situation

Chapter 34 sanctions

 

Is the jobseeker's claim income based? Do you have no other resources (savings for example). If the answer to both of these questions is "yes", apply for hardship payments whilst you await the outcome of the appeal, on the basis of your young children.

 

A guide to hardship is here: Chapter 35 Hardship

gl24dwp.pdf

[Zamzara]

HB/CTB are unaffected as you can still get it on grounds of low or no income. There is also a difference between a sanction, and ending JSA altogether. In the former case you are still treated as receiving JSA and still automatically qualify for HB/CTB; in the latter case you must provide evidence of income and capital. The council may well be clueless about this so be ready to educate them.

 

And as above, please appeal the ridiculous JSA decision.

[Win2Kuser]

Thanks for the replies ErikaPNP and Zamzara. I will most definitely appeal on this pathetic decision.

 

I'm not sure if I have been sanctioned, suspended, or had it stopped completely; The letter reads as follows;

 

Dear Mr XXXX

 

YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE

A CHANGE IN YOUR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE

 

We have looked at your claim again following a recent change.

 

We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 14 August 2010.

 

This is because we recently told you that a decision would be made about a doubt:

on whether you failed to take advantage of a job opportunity with

CONSULTANT OFFICE.

We have now decided that you failed to apply for this employment and that you did no have sufficiently good reasons for doing so. This decision applies from 14 August 2010 to 11 February 2010.

 

If you are looking for work, and you intend to dispute against this decision, or to apply for hardship payments, you should continue to provide signed declarations as instructed on your ES40.

 

blah de blah.....

 

It says nothing about what made them make their decision, nor does it say on what grounds I 'failed to apply' for the position. Although the job information I was given said "ring" for an interview, I sent them a letter applying for the job, so therefore, I DID apply for the job, albeit a different way than requested. I sent a copy of that letter to the job centre when they sent the form notifying me of the 'doubt', so I really can't see how they can say I failed to apply for the job! To me, it looks like they ignored my reply to their doubt letter, and just stamped it as 'failed'.

I'm so frigging mad right now!

 

The letter I received does not state whether this applies to both myself and my partner, or just me. It's a joint claim, but the letter is addressed to only me. I can only assume that it would apply to the claim as a whole, in which case, neither of us will get nothing???

 

I'll have to give the local council a ring Monday and let them know, and see what they say. I'll be on the phone first thing Monday to the DWP too, to find out how they made their decision.

 

Until then, I guess it's in the lap of the gods...

 

I did have a look through that PDF file on Sanctions ErikaPNP, but there is hundreds of pages, and I couldn't see anything that was applicable to me, well, nothing that I didn't already know... I'm not sure if I am sanctioned or not anyway

 

Any info or help would be great...

 

Thanks so far

[Win2Kuser]

I meant to say, the current (or what was current) claim for IBJSA ended on the 11th February anyways, so it's not like I have been suspended until that time...

[ErikaPNP]

That is a sanction as they have stopped benefit for a specified period.

 

The sanction would come under Refusal of employment starting with paragraph 34388 or refusal/failure to follow a jobseekers direction starting with paragraph 34626. Sanctions in respect of joint claims is outlined starting with 34951.

 

The dates don't appear to add up, though. Are you certain that the sanction is for that particular job?

[Win2Kuser]

Thanks ErikaPNP, I will have a look through that then...

 

How do you mean the dates don't add up?

 

The original job request was handed to me on the 18th June, and the covering letter and CV was dated the 20th June.

 

At the next sign-on appointment on the 2nd July, I was asked by the clerk what was the result of the job offer. I explained that I had tried to get through, but because I was unable to, I had sent a covering letter and CV, and was waiting to hear back.

 

I heard nothing more until I received the letter of doubt a couple of weeks later. I'm not sure of the exact date, but I think it was around the 19th July. I filled the form in and sent it back same day along with a copy of the letter of application.

 

On my next sign-on appointment, I asked the clerk about it, but she said there was nothing on the system, so she made an entry saying that I had enquired about it.

 

I have heard nothing since, until the letter I received today.

 

Thanks for the info regarding sanction, at least I know I won't need to do anything regarding HB and CTB. I will be appealing to the decision though, and I will be applying for Hardship payments. I just hope it doesn't take too long to set-up as the bills, nappies/food etc, sure ain't gonna wait!

 

Thanks so far.....

[Win2Kuser]

Sorry, meant to say, it must be for that job, as it's the only offer I've been given since first signing on...

[Zamzara]

Assuming they mean Feb 2011, they also seem to have applied a six month sanction as the starting point, which is a gross error of law. There is plenty of case law to say that six months is reserved for only the worst cases and that one week is the starting point. (In addition to the sanction being wrong anyway.)

 

I would make it very clear to them that you expect this decision to be changed at once or you will be claiming compensation.

[Win2Kuser]

Thanks Zamzara, yes, my mistake, it was February 2011, not 2010.

 

I'm just about to give them a buzz and find out what is going on. I'm not sure where to start though. I think I might record the telephone conversation for my own reference...

 

This has been worrying me all night, not a very good night's sleep! What if the company involved didn't receive my letter, or disposed of it prior to the Job Centre contacting them. How can I prove I sent it? Every week, I tend to send at least 2 prospective letters to companies in the area looking for work, plus the usual type of correspondence that I have to deal with, and I never get proof of postage for any of it; It's going to be my word against theirs, and by the looks of it, they are judge, jury, and executioner, so I stand little chance

 

On what grounds would I be claiming compensation? I've just got a feeling, they will just tell me to fill in an appeal letter and wait for the result. I can't see that they would change a decision there and then on the phone???....

 

Does anyone know if sanctions can be classed as being unlawful? Just an idea...

 

Wish me luck....

[Win2Kuser]

Okay, I spoke to someone (name recorded) in the Liverpool office regarding the sanction.

The very helpful chap said that there was nothing he could personally do, but he said he would send me out an application form for Hardship Payments, and I should take that in with me this coming Friday (my next sign on date) along with the completed appeal form I downloaded from the link given by ErikaPNP.

 

He did confirm that the sanction had been given because I failed to apply for the above position. I told him that I had in fact applied via post, but there was nothing he could do, all appeals have to be made through the local Job Centre office.

 

So I guess it's just a case of waiting around. I just hope it won't take too long to sort out, or at least get hardship payments, I was due to be paid Wednesday 1st September, and I have the usual bills coming out, plus needing to get nappies, food etc, but as this isn't going to happen, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I don't have savings, and my partner's child tax credits are not enough by a long shot to cover everything

 

Thanks for all your information so far....

[reallymadwoman]

If you're really desperate, try your local CAB. Some of them have access to e.g. food parcels for struggling families.

[Greer8472]

Sanction for not taking a job from a agency that was advising for jobs and putting an Interview first cost me benefit. Now trying to sort this out will affect this interview I be having this week. Don't they not realise the amount of preparation that is due for an Interview. Doing this got me sanctioned for 3 months. I could bite this on the lip but 3 months is harsh considering I am trying to find a job and have evidence to prove it.

 

I got a consideration interview on Thursday but I am not expecting much as people on the phone don't want to help out or give advice and same goes for the Job Centre. I will be whacking all the evidence on the table and thank them so much for giving me aggravation before an interview and blame them for something they should be helping you to avoid.

 

In refection what the original post is about. It's not looking good for those who are legit looking for jobs and they just want to put us down if a mishap happens and you wonder how many people are stuck in this mess. I would now be in a very similar situation as I can't get an email back from a person who I applied a job for. Reading this I think I am going to be buggerd again.

 

Good luck with you appeal but I am not holding my breath.

~~

 

[daveydavey]

to Greer, you may be able to take them to a County Court to recover the JSA which has been unreasonably withheld from you & to which you are legally entitled.

[Guest jsa12]

this one is the oldest "trick" in their book and will almost certainly just laugh in the seat,i complained if i had not kept proof the grinning reply was "then it would have gone through",by applying through the jobcentre means being submitted,i have lost count of the times this has happened to me,fortunately the first time the company sent a letter stating i had not got the job and was covered and learn't quickly,another time was the company had received my details and told the job centre that i had not applied it was happening every job i applied with them and by this time covered in each case.

 

always keep a recorded delivery receipt and always send postal applications' this way.

 

forwarding cv by email keep the sent email and print off if necessary.

 

if attending an interview ask for a business card,this will cover you 99.9% of the time.

 

this is a disgusting underhanded cheap method of abuse against unemployed people,they claim that "employers sometimes make mistakes" when they are caught out, however without proof they will sanction you always appeal against this and you do have to watch them,this is one of the main weapons of sanction abuse they have.

[Penny For Them]

Hi Win2Kuser

 

In the thread above you state, "On my next sign-on appointment, I asked the clerk about it, but she said there was nothing on the system, so she made an entry saying that I had enquired about it".

 

Can you remember the date of this signing on appointment? At your next appointment ask the FJR Officer to print off your Interview History for this date. Read it and if it is favourable e.g. customer advised me that she had experienced problems when telephoning CONSULTANT OFFICE but sent a covering letter and CV instead. Ensure this is attached to your appeal paperwork.

 

When JCP sub customers to jobs at their signing intervention, they are recorded in the labour market system (LMS). Two thirds of these are followed up. This means that a JCP member of staff rings the company to find out if the jobseeker has applied for the job. However, what I think might have happened to you is that the person you mention above (FJR Officer) has taken the refusing employment action (RE). If this is the case (and don't forget you have the right to see your records) then what she wrote in the interview history might contradict what she has stated in the RE paperwork.

[Win2Kuser]

Just an update to things then.....

 

Thanks for your replies so far, some great information

 

Just got back from signing on...

The lady I spoke to mentioned it to me that I had been sanctioned for the full 26 weeks. I explained that I had previously had a notice of doubt to which I had duly replied including a copy of the letter I sent the company in question. She checked on her system and found no mention of the notice of doubt reply, so she went off and got the paperwork for the claim, and sure enough, the notice of doubt form I had filled in was not there. She apologised profusely and said that it had not been delivered, or had been lost in the system. Because they hadn't received the notice of doubt reply, they had assumed that I was not questioning the doubt and had therefore automatically smacked me with a 26 week sanction!

 

I had to sign a reconsider form which she said would be considerably quicker than an appeal, filled in a few things as to why I wanted a reconsider, and she sent it off internally saying that it should be dealt with towards the arse end of next week. I also handed over the completed hardship payments form which she said would be sent via courier and because we had 2 small children would be dealt with as a priority.

 

So, once again we play the waiting game...

 

She did say though, that it was obvious from the copy of the letter that I had applied for the job, and that it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Thanks for all your replies, hopefully, I'll got a result in the next week or so.....

[Penny For Them]

I was wondering why you appealed. When JSA is stopped, they are suppossed to inform you of your right to a reconsideration.

[ErikaPNP]

People tend to appeal because on appeal, a reconsideration is an integral part of the process which must be performed as part of the appeal. If a claimant appeals and the integral reconsideration is favourable to them, the appeal lapses anyway and they need do no more, but have fresh appeal rights against the reconsidered determination. If the determination on the other hand is unfavourable to the claimant, the appeal will continue automatically and be forwarded to the tribunal service.

 

If only a reconsideration is requested and this results in a decision unfavourable to the claimant, the claimant must then appeal if they still disagree with the outcome. This also means a further reconsideration performed before being passed to tribunal, which lengthens the process for the claimant.

 

Asking for a reconsideration, failing then having to appeal can be a lenghtly wait for the claimant, particularly as there is no legislation which stipulates time limits on DWP or the Tribunal Service for final determination of reconsiderations or appeals.

 

It's also why a lot of people bypass asking for an explanation, or a SoR.

[Greer8472]

I was wondering why you appealed. When JSA is stopped, they are suppossed to inform you of your right to a reconsideration.

 

Hang on... my JSA was sanctioned before I was given the paper work for a reconsideration. Or are you talking about the form they send through the post asking for the reasons why you had not applied? This form do they actually check as I submitted evidence with my re-consideration after I was sectioned?

[Guest jsa12]

this sounds grotesquely unfair decision,i have seen it happen to loads of people while on "programs"'i am disabled and have great problems finding work with mental health problems',the reality of the real world is vastly different from dwps' published statements'.it should be of great concern that sick vulnerable people are being forced into this environment unfairly without any consideration for wellbeing.

 

some time ago i was forced to leave a job and was sanctioned for "leaving your job voluntarily" however i obtained a doctors letter at the time that was then sent to the adjudication officer,the job centre were told by this person in front of me by phone not to let him see some of the paperwork,when sanctions are made they deliberately clam up.what transpired never ceased to amaze me the doctor's letter was twisted into a blatant untruth by the adjudicator making up her own version of events and this on paper when this was found out by myself after speaking to the doctors surgery and with an appeal pending they quickly backed down it would have been a great embarrassment to proceed to that point.

 

dont expect fair treatment from these people you wont receive it,while standards of service are displayed on the board the reality is somewhat different,you do need to keep proof complain like mad at injustice and don't be taken for a fool.

 

get that appeal in now,they never let people know when sanctioned despite supposing too,often only finding out when payments have stopped and then questioned,i would deeply mistrust the "lost in the system" claim.

Edited August 28, 2010 by jsa12

[Penny For Them]

Gosh you learn something new everyday. Just goes to show what lousy training I had whilst employed at the Jobcentre.

 

Greer, when an Officer takes Refusing Employment Action (RE) they have to issue you with an ES195REJP form i.e. Dear _____ A doubt has arisen on your claim for Jobseeker's Allowance as it appears that you may have refused an offer of employment/training opportunity. etc, etc. You were notified of an employment/training opportunity with ________________ on ______________ which you refused/failed to apply for/failed to accept. etc etc.

 

It goes on to state Before I refer your case for a decision, please state on the reverse of this form, the reasons why you refused/failed to apply for/failed to accept the opportunity offered.

 

You are then given 7 days to return the form explaining why you failed to take advantage of the opportunity. If you do not return the form it is assumed you do not wish to comment. Now this is the important bit JOBSEEKERS ALLOWANCE WILL CONTINUE TO BE PAID AS USUAL UNTIL A DECISION IS MADE.

 

If a decision maker decides you do not have a good reason and you are sanctioned, they should send you leaflet (JSA10JP) explaining how to make an application for payment of JSA under the hardship provision.

 

Another point, when issued with a ES195REJP, you should also have been issued with an ESL48JP explaining when and how your allowance is affected, how long they take and what happens if the decision is favourable.

[Greer8472]

Gosh you learn something new everyday. Just goes to show what lousy training I had whilst employed at the Jobcentre.

 

Greer, when an Officer takes Refusing Employment Action (RE) they have to issue you with an ES195REJP form i.e. Dear _____ A doubt has arisen on your claim for Jobseeker's Allowance as it appears that you may have refused an offer of employment/training opportunity. etc, etc. You were notified of an employment/training opportunity with ________________ on ______________ which you refused/failed to apply for/failed to accept. etc etc.

 

It goes on to state Before I refer your case for a decision, please state on the reverse of this form, the reasons why you refused/failed to apply for/failed to accept the opportunity offered.

 

You are then given 7 days to return the form explaining why you failed to take advantage of the opportunity. If you do not return the form it is assumed you do not wish to comment. Now this is the important bit JOBSEEKERS ALLOWANCE WILL CONTINUE TO BE PAID AS USUAL UNTIL A DECISION IS MADE.

 

If a decision maker decides you do not have a good reason and you are sanctioned, they should send you leaflet (JSA10JP) explaining how to make an application for payment of JSA under the hardship provision.

 

Another point, when issued with a ES195REJP, you should also have been issued with an ESL48JP explaining when and how your allowance is affected, how long they take and what happens if the decision is favourable.

 

Yes I got that with the first sanction where my reasons they think it not good enough and so my JSA was taken away and I went into the JC and filled out a reconsideration form with evidence to show I was preparing for an interview and needed time to focus on that.

On a second sanction I was NOT issued with the paper work through the post to reply in the next 7 days. They wanted me to fill out another reconsideration form there and then and of course I had not prepared for it as I did not know about a possible sanction and not got any evidence with me at the time. I informed them to take that paper work away and I will wait for the post of the anouncement BUT they have already sanctioned me for that and again I have reasons why I did not apply for that job.

[Penny For Them]

Did you take the name of the person who tried to force you to complete the form there and then? They were quite within their right to issue you with an ES195RE in person but you also had the right to take the form away with you, complete and return within 7 days. If I were you I would write a letter of complaint to the Jobcentre Manager and pp it to your MP. Don't bother complaining using the DWP1018 form, it doesn't have as much clout as a letter clearly showing you have copied your MP.

[Greer8472]

Did you take the name of the person who tried to force you to complete the form there and then? They were quite within their right to issue you with an ES195RE in person but you also had the right to take the form away with you, complete and return within 7 days. If I were you I would write a letter of complaint to the Jobcentre Manager and pp it to your MP. Don't bother complaining using the DWP1018 form, it doesn't have as much clout as a letter clearly showing you have copied your MP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately I did not take this person's name and they never mentioned I could take the form away to complete it within 7 days. It all felt like a pressure thing. Been shown two sanctions in front of me and being never informed of one of them put me in a awkward situation.

 

As you did mention that the normal complants procedure did not work I will be conplaining to the MP now the way it has all happened. The only problem is I would not be able to relate to the MP to where I moved to this year unlike my old one. Doesn't matter I will still be writing it but getting a job first is more important.