unadopted public highway

[jackiemorris]

The road into a council car park is 'not an adopted public higway' painted with double yellow lines along the full length. As a disabled driver with a blue badge, can I legally park on it? The council maintains that it is not a road, but part of said car park and that I can be fined for not parking in an official bay, is this correct?

[green_and_mean]

The road into a council car park is 'not an adopted public higway' painted with double yellow lines along the full length. As a disabled driver with a blue badge, can I legally park on it? The council maintains that it is not a road, but part of said car park and that I can be fined for not parking in an official bay, is this correct?

 

Yes if it is part of the car park traffic order that the road is included and you must park in a bay you can get a 'fine'.

[jackiemorris]

I have asked for a copt of said order but nothing forthcoming yet.....does it make a difference that this unadopted highway is also the access road to 2 blocks of flats,a childrens clinic, a social club & the town hall?

[TheBogsDollocks]

If the council are claiming that the location is not "road" then you may be able to apply pressure on the council. The design of a double yellow line is the copyright of the crown and permission (via statute) has only been given for a local authority to use it to convey information to traffic on a road. The council can only lawfully replicate a double yellow line on land not considered "road" if the council has been given formal permission to do so. Therefore demand that the council produces evidence that they have permission from the crown to use the traffic sign on land not considered road and are not therefore guilty of breaching crown copyright. If they have not got permission (its unlikley that they have) then they may not pursue any PCN issued for parking on the double yellow line to simply avoid their breach of crown copyright becoming public knowledge and an embarrassment.

 

The placing of a double yellow line will naturally imply that the land is public highway and that the 3 hour exemption for blue badge holders applies. I would be very surprised if an adjudicator upheld any PCN issued to a blue badge holder where no signage is erected to warn blue badge holders that the exemption does not apply.

[lamma]

Nice point about the copyright.

[green_and_mean]

I think you will find that using the signs in a publication is covered by copyright, however copyright does not extend to lines on a road the govt cannot for example claim they have copyright over the use of the word 'stop'.

[Bigdebtor]

Nice point about the copyright.

 

Certainly worth a try - unless G&M is also an expert on the law of copyright?

 

In any case it's misleading to have such lines in this situation as a normal person would expect the yellow lines to indicate this was a road and not part of a car park.

 

I would appeal all the way!

 

BD

[TheBogsDollocks]

Certainly worth a try - unless G&M is also an expert on the law of copyright?

 

In any case it's misleading to have such lines in this situation as a normal person would expect the yellow lines to indicate this was a road and not part of a car park.

 

I would appeal all the way!

 

BD

 

Thank you. I agree, it is absolutely misleading as a person will obviously assume it is a normal double yellow line. People can't just place double yellow lines wherever they feel like. They were designed by the legislators to be placed on public highway (road) and not for land not considered road. I think the copyright should apply but it will take an adjudicator to settle this.

[Bigdebtor]

I agree and would take it all the way if it were me! I'm a bit concerned that some posters in these parking forums seem to be very pessimistic and remove all hope from others - particularly new CAGGERS. I do hope there is no hidden agenda?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Is it pessimism or realism?

[Bigdebtor]

I think there may be a lack of lateral thinking or willingness to explore all options - which would make pessimism seem like realism to them.

[dragonkeeper]

.

 

There again sometimes a short but to the point answer is what a new member needs to start of with.

 

 

 

 

Before I made my first post I had read through the topic first and understood that some poster's posts were mere digs at other poster's info.

 

This post of mine might also be be concidered as one, but for the fact I am not making a dig at any one with on TOPIC info.

 

 

 

 

 

dk

[Bigdebtor]

Yes if it is part of the car park traffic order that the road is included and you must park in a bay you can get a 'fine'.

 

So surely putting yellow lines on part of a car park is just another waste of public money?

 

If it's part of the car park then if any car is parked outside a marked bay then it's clearly illegal to park and subject to a fixed penalty.

 

The annoying point here is the council trying to dress up part of its car park as being a public road - leading to understandable confusion with those who are entitled to park on yellow lines.

 

Another case of the consequences of this uneccessary action not being thought through fully by the council. I think this is worth pursuing all the way, and the council should clear up the confusion before others make the same mistake - assuming their key objective is to ensure free flow of traffic and not to collect revenue from disabled badge holders.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

it's clearly illegal to park and subject to a fixed penalty.

 

Interesting contrast here of your use of the word "illegal" and a recent post of yours on another thread over the use of the word "offence" . . . .

[Bigdebtor]

Fair point - I stand corrected.

 

I think one gets a "fine" for "illegal" acts and in this case I believe it would be a "penalty charge" and not a "fine". However this is not my area of expertise and I am not sure what the correct word should be to replace my incorrect use of "illegal" ?

[green_and_mean]

Certainly worth a try - unless G&M is also an expert on the law of copyright?

 

In any case it's misleading to have such lines in this situation as a normal person would expect the yellow lines to indicate this was a road and not part of a car park.

 

I would appeal all the way!

 

BD

 

It doesn't take an expert to know what copyright covers and lines painted on a street is not one of them unless of course its classed as an 'artistic work'? I would be very interested in finding out how you can copyright English words such as 'Stop' or 'Give way' I might even paint a picture of a bicycle on my drive and await being taken to court for breach of copyright!! Maybe all car parks should start using pink paint to mark out bays as clearly you seem to think white bays are crown copyright?

 

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies.htm

[Bigdebtor]

I was not referring to the copyright ploy - which I think most would have realised was an amusing aside, but perhaps just worth following up - but only along with other avenues.

 

I was discussing the more serious issue of the council misleading blue badge holders and wasting public money by painting unneccessary and confusing yellow lines where the regulations would have been sufficient to prohibit parking outside of marked bays.

 

I shall therefore not comment on the rest of your post as you seem to infer much from little or no evidence.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I was discussing the more serious issue of the council misleading blue badge holders and wasting public money by painting unneccessary and confusing yellow lines where the regulations would have been sufficient to prohibit parking outside of marked bays.

 

I think this is an interesting point. It is perhaps a case of excessive signage. I doubt that the yellow lines are a material cause of confusion (but I do get the point that the OP is making) as the confusion would be rather greater to more people if they were not there.

 

Interesting (in an anorakish way) point on the copyright. I seem to recall that Westminster tried to copyright their distinctive style of signs for street names (RBKC may have done too). I always gathered that this was to try and get royalties from the souvenir businesses - or is that an urban myth?

[TheBogsDollocks]

I believe raising the point of crown copyright was reasonable. A double yellow line just like any other traffic sign is a "design" and may perhaps therefore be considered an artistic work. From what I understand of crown copyright there is reasonable freedom to use copyrighted material but one of the terms of doing so is that it is not used in a manner to mislead. I think it reasonable to argue that using a double yellow line on a car park access road has the potential to mislead the public and particularly blue badge holders.

 

I've never suggested words are copyrighted but the designs of traffic signs I believe are. If they are not then let the council prove otherwise was what I was advocating.

[green_and_mean]

I.

 

I've never suggested words are copyrighted but the designs of traffic signs I believe are. If they are not then let the council prove otherwise was what I was advocating.

 

The signs are either copyright or they are not you cannot just pick and choose which ones you think are. 'STOP' painted in white on the road is a traffic sign which means no one else in the UK can write stop on a road or similar location? Most UK signs are taken from the European standard which dates back to the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals in the mid 60s. Even back as far as 1908 certain signs were standardised across Europe so I don't see how the Crown can hold coryright as crown copyright only covers material created by crown empoyees and civil servants during their work. If the sign is adopted from an international standard it was not created by the crown and therefore not crown copyright. The TSRGD is copyright as its a document created by the crown but that does not mean road signs described in are also copyright.

[TheBogsDollocks]

G&M you are never wrong which must mean you are once again right.

 

Foolishly I took a DfT statement to be true;

 

United Kingdom signs are crown copyright and may not be reproduced without permission. In no circumstances

will the Department permit the use of traffic signs on advertisements at road side locations. When prescribed traffic

signs are used illegally action should be taken to secure their removal.

 

The DfT do get things wrong but the last sentence would seem aimed at unlawfully placed copyrighted signs. The TSRGD 2002 only gives permission for a yellow line to be placed on a road to indicate a statutory prohbition, restriction on waiting and so a council using it off road could be ultra vires and illegal or so I thought until you corrected me.

 

Edited September 13, 2010 by TheBogsDollocks

[green_and_mean]

G&M you are never wrong which must mean you are once again right.

 

Foolishly I took a DfT statement to be true;

 

United Kingdom signs are crown copyright and may not be reproduced without permission. In no circumstances

will the Department permit the use of traffic signs on advertisements at road side locations. When prescribed traffic

signs are used illegally action should be taken to secure their removal.

 

The DfT do get things wrong but the last sentence would seem aimed at unlawfully placed copyrighted signs. The TSRGD 2002 only gives permission for a yellow line to be placed on a road to indicate a statutory prohbition, restriction on waiting and so a council using it off road could be ultra vires and illegal or so I thought until you corrected me.

 

 

As far as I see it the TSRGD is a printed work so any advertisment containing a copy of a sign from it would be a copy of the printed form which is breach of copyright which is not the same as if the advert contained a photo of a yellow line which would not be a breach. I can see why you have come to your conclusion but we all know from experience anything stated by the DfT needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I think it reasonable to argue that using a double yellow line on a car park access road has the potential to mislead the public and particularly blue badge holders.

 

Help me understand why the presence of double yellow lines on a car park access road has the particular potential to confuse blue badge holders?

 

I would suggest that what is really needed is definitive signage to show that you are now entering a car park where different rules apply.

[TheBogsDollocks]

Help me understand why the presence of double yellow lines on a car park access road has the particular potential to confuse blue badge holders?

 

Happy to.

 

The law (TSRGD 2002) only permits double yellow or single yellow lines to be placed on road (public highway). Councils have not been given any authority to place them on land considered to be off road (not public highway).

 

Therefore should they be placed on land such as on a private access road that leads off the public highway to a car park a blue badge holder may assume that since yellow lines are only prescribed for use on the public highway that the access road must be public highway. As such the blue badge holder may assume the yellow lines indicate a No Waiting restriction. Since statute allows a blue badge holder to park on yellow lines for up to 3 hours a blue badge holder may be misled into believing they are parking lawfully and will be unaware that the land is considered by the council to be off road and part of the car park.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OK thanks for that. I thought you may have been thinking along those lines.

 

In the first place given that a blue badge holder is able to park on a road whether it has a DYL or not I don't see how the presence or absence of DYLs will confuse a BB holder. I accept the remote possibility that a BB holder may be misled into thinking they are on a road rather than in a carpark thinking that DYLs are not authorised for use other than on the road, but I suspect a BB holder that conversant with the rules is less likely to be misled than you may fear. What is important is that it is clear that a motorist is entering a place where off-street parking restrictions apply.

 

When you say "Councils have not been given any authority to place them [yellow lines] on land considered to be off road (not public highway)", I'm not sure you've got that quite right have you. What they don't have is the ability to enforce them other than as waiting restrictions other than on the public highway. AFAIK they can paint them wherever they wish, its the enforcement that matters.