Are Rossendales Bailiffs acting illegally?

[Arrogant Duck]

So... Last July (2009) I began having visits from a Rossendales Bailiff over a Magistrates Liability Order/Distress warrant for unpaid council tax. I immediately called them and asked what the balance I owed was. The reply was a disheartening £875.91. I stated that I was out of work and could afford to pay £50 a month from my jobseekers allowance, but was told this wouldn't fly, they said I had two accounts outstanding(??), the first charge was £473.11 and the second was £402.80. I was told that if I paid the £473.11 by the end of the month they would accept installments on the lower amount.

I borrowed money from my partner and her father (which I am still paying off) and applied for a Budgeting Loan from the DWP. I promptly paid the £473.11 (plus a hidden admin charge for paying with a debit card) on 28/7/09. I received a receipt from this.

 

The folllowing month I paid £202.80 and received a receipt saying that my balance was now £200.

 

It was only then that I discovered some earlier correspondence from Rossendales (my partner would often leave unopened mail on the table and it simply got buried with other paperwork). The previous letters from Rossendales stated that the balances owed were £402.80 & £204.11 (including first visit & second visit charges) totalling £606.91 NOT the £875.91 they were claiming in July. Since I had already paid a total of £677.51 (proven in my bank statement) I had already paid £70 more than I needed to.

I called them to ask where their figures came from and requested a breakdown of their charges before I paid them any more cash, they said that my account details were still with the bailiff in charge. I called him and he said that I had to call head office. This went back and forth several times until I said that I refuse to pay any more money until I had the paperwork I was legally entitled to.

 

In November (two months after the phone calls) I received another letter stating that they agreed to accept installments and I did not adhere to them. I now owed £389.00 plus a further £110.00 should a van be sent to my address. Again, I called them and was given the same old spin.

 

I didn't pay and didn't hear from them again until May this year, when the same notices were posted through the communal door of my block (not even in sealed envelopes) and left in the foyer for any Tom, Dick and Harry to see. I ignored these, because, as far as I'm concerned, I didn't receive them.

 

More recently I've had handwritten notices posted through the door for me to "contact the bailiff in charge and discuss the o/s court warrant". I should also add that one of these pieces of paper had somebody elses credit card details written on the back!!!

 

For the last month I have been receiving phone calls from the bailiff, but I'm still reluctant to pay until I receive a breakdown of charges.

 

Rossendales slogan states that they are "Proud to be Professional". What an absolute joke they are!

[hallowitch]

first thing you do is get in touch with the council ask

 

how many liability orders they have

the period the liability orders relate to

the amount of each liability order

date all liability orders were sent to the bailiff company

the amount oust anding against each liability order

 

 

next you send this to rossendales (by recorded delivery )

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme bailiff Co

bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account. Can you please provide me with a Breakdown of the charges including Computer Screenshot.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

_______________

 

Bailiffs fees for council tax are set by statute under The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (amended)

 

1st visit £24.50

2nd visit £18

they can then charge a levy if they have levied on your goods the fees for this is worked out on a sliding scale depending on the amount of the liability order(s)

they can also charge a walking possession fee of £12 only if you signed the walking possession agreement

If they have a valid levy and you miss an payment they can charge a van fee approx £110

 

if a bailiff is collecting more than one liability order they can only charge 1 set of visit fees

 

for the levy fee both liability orders should be added together and the levy should be work out on the total amount

 

you should also confirm if the bailiff is certificated to rossendales the registrar is not always 100% if you cant find him/her or they are not certificated to rossendales Ministry of Justice Public Register of bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 to confirm

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?210956-On-line-search-to-check-if-a-Bailiff-is-Certificated

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

as for your car how old is it? I.E. would the sale of it actually cover a large percentage of the bill anyway?

a vehicle should only be removed if the proceeds of sale provide that there would be a surplus available to the liability order after deductions for the bailiff fees, , removal storages and auctioneers fees.

[emzickle]

I have had this problem with Rosseddales myself. I now deal with the "Welfare Department" (01706 833020) directly and they can normally e-mail a breakdown of all accounts within 24 hours. What area do you live in, as they have agreements with certain CAB's to freeze accounts for 28 days while any problems are resolved.

[Arrogant Duck]

I e-mailed my Council for the information I require shortly after posting this thread but have since had no reply. The bailiff in charge is still hounding me with phone calls (3 today) which I am not answering and leaving to go through to voicemail.

 

Is it correct that the only fees which can be added on to the original debt are £24.50 for the first visit and £18 for a second visit unless I sign a Walking Possession Agreement?

I have always denied the bailiff entry into my property and have never signed anything given to me. As far as I'm concerned, I've paid £70 more than I needed to and am still unsure whether the money I've paid has even been passed on to my council.

 

Is there any way I can reclaim my overpayment from their excessive fees?

Edited October 12, 2010 by IdaInFife
please be aware of your wording

[Arrogant Duck]

May I also add that as well as phone calls I also received an SMS message which reads:

 

Please be advised that due to non payment of your council tax debt, the warrant has been booked for removal. If debt paid contact your bailiff in charge on _____ ______ to stop further action. Urgently

 

 

Surely this is harassment now?

[hallowitch]

how many liability orders they have

the period the liability orders relate to

the amount of each liability order

date all liability orders were sent to the bailiff company

the amount outstanding against each liability order

 

 

I don't usually advise people to phone the council however you should phone them and ask for the information

ask them there name (note down time date) ask them if the call is recorded if they ask why inform them

you have already requested this information by e-mal

you are unsure of the exact amount but according to your records you have overpaid(don't elaborate on that) as you are now fully aware of the council tax administration and enforcement regulations 1992(amended) in particular regulation 45 schedule 5 charges connected with disses and the case of the Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council as the bailiff is collecting more than 1 liability order

 

tell them the bailiff has not levied distress on your property you have never received a form 7 (notice of seizure of goods and inventory)

 

nether the council or rossendales have not replied to you regarding the information you have requested however you still have a bailiff demanding extortionate amounts of money you are constantly getting phone calls threatening to enter your property with a locksmith to remove goods and you need to make a formal complaint asap because as far you are concerned the bailiff is sailing very close to harassment for a debt you feel hads been paid but no one will supply you with the information to sort it out

 

 

sorry if this sounds like a rant but why the hell should you put with this for a debt that is paid however no one will supply the info you need to confirm this(or provide the info to conform if you do still owe

 

 

from what you have put on here you don't

[hallowitch]

i did post on another thread for you to start your own thread but i see you already have one going about this

 

you really need the information from the council and rossendales to see whats going on with your account

 

send the council a subject access request as i understand it you wont have to pay for it

[Arrogant Duck]

i did post on another thread for you to start your own thread but i see you already have one going about this

 

you really need the information from the council and rossendales to see whats going on with your account

 

send the council a subject access request as i understand it you wont have to pay for it

 

 

I've already asked the Council for information, but what they sent me I can't make head or tail of. I sent another e-mail yesterday under the heading "Formal Complaint" and informed them that I suspected that Rossendales are withholding payment.

 

I also sent Rossendales a registered letter, I'll post an edited version of it shortly...

[Arrogant Duck]

Client Ref: *******

Account Numbers: ******* & ********

 

 

Dear Ms. Green-Jones,

 

I am writing in connection to the above account numbers. For several months, I have been receiving visits and telephone calls from a Mr. Bailiff, who is working on behalf of your company to recover a debt which I believe I have already paid.

In the letters which have been posted through my door it clearly states that the bailiff named above will re-attend my address at his convenience and may remove goods even in my absence. As Mr. Bailiff has never entered my property, I believe this threat of action is illegal due to the fact that a Walking Possession Order has not been signed and I have not received a Form 7 (notice of seizure of goods & inventory).

According to my first correspondence with Rossendales, my original debt to Hounslow Council (including first & second visit charges due to your company) was £X. I have already paid £Y (which my bank statements will prove) but am still being harassed for phantom amounts which seem to have no basis in law and therefore fraudulent as no further visit fees can be imposed, thus your bailiff is committing fraud by false representation. I have asked for a breakdown of my account several times but have yet to receive any response.

 

May I also add that Mr. Bailiff’s conduct has been nothing short of appalling. In addition to leaving confidential letters in a communal foyer WITHOUT being placed in a sealed envelope, I have also had hand-written notes passed through my door which I deem extremely unprofessional. One of these hand-written notices also revealed the FULL credit card details of another debtor.

 

The Fraud Act 2006 created a new general offence of fraud. This can be committed by three methods, one of which is by false representation. Fraud by false representation is set out in Section 2 of the act; where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself as another, or cause loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss, that person will be causing an offence.

 

Taking into account the above paragraph, I look forward to seeing a breakdown of my account, including computer screenshots, so this matter can be resolved once and for all.

This includes:

A - The time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

B - The reason for the fee.

C - The name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

D - The name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

E - The date of the Certification.

 

Please note, that this is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10.00. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days and would be grateful if you could instruct Mr. Bailiff or any other bailiff working on your behalf to cease action against me until this matter is resolved.

 

Please note that a similar letter has also been sent to Hounslow Council.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

 

 

Mr. Notpayinganothershilling Toyourcorruptcompany

 

 

*Please also note that I am not signing this letter as I do not want my signature to be forged upon any of your documents.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Arrogant Duck

[hallowitch]

a Walking Possession Order has not been signed

a walking possession agreement does not have to be signed for a bailiff to remove goods

[Arrogant Duck]

a Walking Possession Order has not been signed

 

 

a walking possession agreement does not have to be signed for a bailiff to remove goods

 

I didn't mention a Walking Possession Agreement

Edited October 13, 2010 by Arrogant Duck

[hallowitch]

I didn't mention a Walking Possession Agreement

 

 

 

. As Mr. Bailiff has never entered my property, I believe this threat of action is illegal due to the fact that a Walking Possession Order has not been signed

[outlawla]

Client Ref: *******

Account Numbers: ******* & ********

 

May I also add that Mr. Bailiff’s conduct has been nothing short of appalling. In addition to leaving confidential letters in a communal foyer WITHOUT being placed in a sealed envelope, I have also had hand-written notes passed through my door which I deem extremely unprofessional. One of these hand-written notices also revealed the FULL credit card details of another debtor.

 

It may be worth mentioning the Data Protection Act 1988, regarding the irresponsible handling of sensitive personal data.

 

It would appear that leaving notices in the way they had, that there had been a breach of the seventh data protection principle (Part I of Schedule 1) (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/schedule/1) in that sensitive personal data under section 2 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/section/2) of the Act had been put at risk of being lost and damaged by the handling of the demand by the data controller.

 

You could make a complaint to the ICO (Information Commissioners Office). Your council and Rossendales would presumably be the "Data Controller" and "Data Processor".

[Arrogant Duck]

. As Mr. Bailiff has never entered my property, I believe this threat of action is illegal due to the fact that a Walking Possession Order has not been signed

 

I've read elsewhere on this site several times that a WPO has to be signed for a Bailiff to remove goods.

[Arrogant Duck]

Scratch above post. I re-read another thread and I got that wrong.

 

Nevertheless, if a WPO hasn't been signed and a Bailiff hasn't levied on any of my property, then any additional fees aside from 1st/2nd visit charges are invalid, right??

[Arrogant Duck]

Well, I got a reply in the post today stating that my letter had been handed to the complaints department (I'm sure they must be busy).

 

However, is my complaint is vexacious then they will have to add legal charges.

 

*rolls eyes*

[wonkeydonkey]

You really must ask them to promptly and clearly define "vexacious", (for such an allegation in law is seen to be serious)

 

WD

[Dhimmiwit]

"However, is my complaint is vexacious then they will have to add legal charges"

 

Yes ArrogantDuck, whatever you do DO NOT annoy Rossendales and do not dare to look them in the eyes. They find little people buzzing around them asking awkward questions very vexating and you will be swatted by their divine bureaucratic debtor swatter.

[Arrogant Duck]

At least I got a reply this time. My first two letters seem to have been completely ignored. I'm unsure as to whether this is because I posted them to their former address or because I did not sent them registered......

[Dhimmiwit]

You really must ask them to promptly and clearly define "vexacious", (for such an allegation in law is seen to be serious)

 

WD

 

Wonky,

 

This is what they write on every early complaints correspondence. It is an underhand method of scaring the little people off by giving them the impression that it is going to cost the already penniless common vexacious pauper even more money to add on top of what they have already stolen from them.

 

" Whilst we take all complaints very seriously and investigate them thoroughly, we will apply for costs in any case of a vexacious complaint involving court action."

[ploddertom]

" Whilst we take all complaints very seriously and investigate them thoroughly, we will apply for costs in any case of a vexacious complaint involving court action."

 

I really hope that is wot thay writ as if cnnt spel then they shud all go bakk to skule.

 

PT

[Arrogant Duck]

So, I got a reply from my letter to Rossenthieves. It's quite laughable.

 

I don't have access to a scanner and it's quite a lengthy piece, so I'll only share the main points.

 

My breakdown of account is as follows (reference numbers and dates have been edited for anonymity reasons):

 

Ref: 1234567

Council Tax Debt: £xx

1st Visit Fee - 30.02.10: £24.50

2nd Visit Fee - 31.04.10: £18.00

Levy Fee: 32.06.10: £29.00

Van Attendance Fee: £160.00

Waiting Time: £80.00

Transaction Fee: £.0.60

 

Payment received: £x

Outstanding Balance: £0

 

Ref: 7654321

Council Tax Debt: £x

1st Visit Fee - 30.02.10: £24.10

2nd Visit Fee - 31.04.10: £18.00

Levy Fee: 01.09.10: £29.00

Van Attendance Fee: £160.00

Transaction Fee: £0.80

 

Payment Received: £x

Outstanding: £x

 

 

My main bones of contention are as follows.

 

A) As there are two separate accounts, is there any reason to add two sets of visit charges??

B) For my first account, they are claiming that a levy was completed on goods within my property. As the bailiff never gained entry to my property, surely this charge is completely unwarranted?

C) There is no such thing as a Waiting Fee?

D) This is what I find most laughable... The levy charge on the second account is for a levy on a vehicle at my address. I DON'T OWN A VEHICLE AND NEVER HAVE!!

 

I am planning on writing a letter back to Rossendales proving that I have overpaid and want to laugh at their illegal charges.

 

Any advice please??

[Arrogant Duck]

Also, does anybody know if the Bailiffstop website advertised on this site is credible?

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

Edited October 18, 2010 by hallowitch