Argos CCA / Hillesden Securities v Me

[24233513afw]

Hi

 

On going situation with Argos letters back and forth regarding CCA which is an Application Form.

 

Been dealing with a few DCA's over the years now it Hillesden Securities and dlc not sure if they are the same people.

 

Received a letter from Hillesden Securities enclosing another application copy but this time with a copy of terms and agreements and their letter stating that :

"After reviewing the document we are happy that it complies with all regulations set out by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Please note that as the above account does not relate to a fixed term agreement the prescribed terms are not required on the face of the agreement.

 

The rest you can read for youreselves when I post up.

 

On my expedition of letters and documents that I have in the house I came over a copy of the default notice that we received from Argos in 2007 I shall also post this up for your comments there does not seem to be a remedy date on it. Is it too late to send a rescindment letter.

 

Copy of Hillesden Letter

Copy of CCA (That they have sent)

Terms and conditions

Copy of Default Notice

 

Any comments or advice gratefully received.

AFW

[Shazza50]

I'm getting an error message when I try to view the copy of CCA.

[24233513afw]

Sorry Shazza50

 

Here is the correct link

Copy of CCA(That They Have Sent)

 

AFW

[harrassed senior]

Hillsdens and DLC are one and the same, dealing with them myself having received a very threatening letter this week, on a debt that has been SB since 2001!!

[cerberusalert]

The Default Notice is defective, it is not date specific.

[cerberusalert]

The CCA does not contain any of the prescribed terms and there is no link to the 'further conditions'.

[24233513afw]

Cheers cerberusalert,

 

The Default Notice is defective, it is not date specific.

 

The CCA does not contain any of the prescribed terms and there is no link to the 'further conditions'.

Thats music to my ears........

Cheers

AFW

[24233513afw]

Hi harrassed senior

Thanks for the info its what I thought

yjey were connected.

If the debt is SB how on earth do they think they have a chance of getting anywhere or are they just trying their luck.

 

Hopefully they will have "nae luck". Keep us posted.

Cheers

AFW

Edited August 15, 2010 by 24233513afw

[harrassed senior]

I have reported them to everyone, up to and including No.10 x 2!!

[24233513afw]

Hi

 

Received another letter from Hillesden enclosing again another copy of CCA and this time 4 pages of Terms & Conditions not good copies the first T & C's I received only had one page of T & C's. Now I have two seperate T & C's from them for this account. One with One Page and another with 4 Pages. The first is in post #1 of this thread.

 

Also again they state because its not a fixed term agreement the prescribed T & C's dont need to be on the face of the agreement (How on earth did they fit 4 pages of T & C'son the back of one paged agreement)

 

Copy of Letter

Copy T & C's Page 1

Copy T & C's Page 2

Copy T & C's Page 3

Copy T & C'c Page 4

 

Also you will notice they state because I stated in my letter that the agreement was unlawfully rescinded they require me to provide evidence to substantiate the claim and sent with all details to validate my claim (Default Notice in Post #1 cerberusalert comment in post 5 stating Default Notice defective "Not Date Specific" Who would you believe...) Do I have to provide evidence for this, surely they should have a copy of the Default Notice.

 

I also tried to claim my charges back from Argos but they only offered £80 for £600.00 worth of charges so I refused. Contacted FOS waste of time no jurisdiction before 2007 and could not go to court at the time because looking after my sick husband takes up most of my time.

 

Could I still counterclaim for charges if they went to court or have I left it too late with it now being assigned to dlc/Hillesden Securities.

 

This would mean that with the unlawfully rescindment stating £110.00 arrears and my charges are £600.00 they would owe me. However there is a balance of £1100.00 approx on this account.

 

Any help will be gratefully recieved.

AFW

[24233513afw]

Bumpty Bump........

 

Please can anybody advise me if I have to prove to hillesden securities that the Default Notice Argos sent me is defective.....due to ut being not date specific you can see a copy in Post 1.....or would they have to find that out for themselves.

 

Would anybody advise me to send them a copy of the default notice to see for themselves or just hold on to it in case they do go to court.

[24233513afw]

Can someone please point me in the right direction for Information regarding Default Notices, I have one from Argos but it is not date specific but not sure how or what this actually means.

 

Cheers

AFW

[cerberusalert]

Even tho' they have sent the T&Cs which may have pertained to the a/c at the time it does not negate the fact that the CCA is unenforceable. It does not contain the prescribed terms as required by CCA 1974 nor does it give a link to them.

 

As for them wanting you to provide evidence of the defective DN... they wish.

 

Send the muppets this;

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

[cerberusalert]

Can someone please point me in the right direction for Information regarding Default Notices, I have one from Argos but it is not date specific but not sure how or what this actually means.

 

Cheers

AFW

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983.pdf