Parking fine at train station

[rickyquicky]

Theres no mention of any byelaws in the carpark, it only states you will recieve a parking charge notice if you don't pay, double park etc (obviously not in those words!)

 

So whats likely to happen now? Also of importance is the fact they didnt get in touch with me for 7 months from the date the ticket was issued. Isn't there a rule about after 6 months of the date of 'offence' it is automatically closed?

[lamma]

liability can arise three ways, statutory, tort or contract. They can't swap horses in midstream.

[Al27]

There is no legislation to permit the issuing of fixed penalty notices for breach of railway byelaws, the legislation states that the railway operator or an authorised person can issue a penalty for an amount as advertised locally for the breach which is what they are doing. You don't get a fixed penalty notice for fare evasion you get a penalty fare this is exactly the same concept which is not that hard to grasp is it? The only point of argument should be that the signage was clear that a penalty would be given if parked in breach. It doesn't matter who issues the penalty SWT, NCP or casey jones himself as long as he is authorised the penalty is due.

 

I think our wires are crossed.

 

Penalties - fine. But the argument is whether a penalty has been issued or not.

[rickyquicky]

Thanks for all the replies and interest in the thread so far. Can anyone confirm that after 6 months from the date of 'offence' there isn't a lot they can do?

[green_and_mean]

I think our wires are crossed.

 

Penalties - fine. But the argument is whether a penalty has been issued or not.

 

Obviously it has that is why the thread was started? To my mind this is the same process as RTA 1984 excess charge notices, the staute gives the power to issue the charge but the charge is not a fine its a (penalty) charge. With fare evasion the operator has 2 options they can a) issue a fixed penalty fare b) use the Courts to prosecute with parking its the same the operator can levy a fixed penalty charge for breach of byelaw or take it to Court.

[green_and_mean]

Thanks for all the replies and interest in the thread so far. Can anyone confirm that after 6 months from the date of 'offence' there isn't a lot they can do?

 

They have already issued you with the charge how long it takes to collect I beleive is limited to 6 years but I'm no expert on debts etc.

[ForestChav]

Obviously it has that is why the thread was started? To my mind this is the same process as RTA 1984 excess charge notices, the staute gives the power to issue the charge but the charge is not a fine its a (penalty) charge. With fare evasion the operator has 2 options they can a) issue a fixed penalty fare b) use the Courts to prosecute with parking its the same the operator can levy a fixed penalty charge for breach of byelaw or take it to Court.

Well, my argument is that if they had the authority to fine, they would surely have also the authority to use the wording "penalty charge notice" on their PCNs, instead they have not used this wording - if you have the authority to, you would surely use it?

They have already issued you with the charge how long it takes to collect I beleive is limited to 6 years but I'm no expert on debts etc.

I believe the concept of statute barring would apply - i.e. 6 years in all of the UK except Scotland where it is 5, unless other specific legislation restricts this.

[rickyquicky]

Isn't there some sort of 6 month rule?

 

A year or 2 back I received a penalty for not showing my season ticket at London Charing Cross, however I was advised on this forum that if they didnt proceed with court action within 6 months there wouldn't be anything they could do.

 

Im also sure i've heard a similar thing with regards to speeding tickets etc...if charges aren't pressed within 6 months then the case is dropped?

[ForestChav]

Dunno, any idea where the law might say that?

[green_and_mean]

Isn't there some sort of 6 month rule?

 

A year or 2 back I received a penalty for not showing my season ticket at London Charing Cross, however I was advised on this forum that if they didnt proceed with court action within 6 months there wouldn't be anything they could do.

 

Im also sure i've heard a similar thing with regards to speeding tickets etc...if charges aren't pressed within 6 months then the case is dropped?

 

The law has different statutes for different things if I admitted I killed my wife 7 months ago I doubt they'd just forget it!!

[Raykay]

The 6 month rule for the laying of information, with a few exceptions, only applies to non-indictable offences:

s. 127 Magistrates Courts Act 1980

So it may depend on whether Railways Act parking problems are indictable or not.

[Zamzara]

Well I think it's worth repeating my earlier point again:-

 

• There is power under the primary legislation to make byelaws creating summary offences for the driver.
  

 

• The byelaws purport to make the owner liable to a civil penalty, but do not create any summary offences. There is no power to make byelaws making anyone liable to a civil penalty.
  

Therefore, the it appears that as far as parking goes the byelaws are ultra vires and unenforceable.

[Wriggler7]

These offences (in railway car parks) were prosecuted in the past. I have asked for an address for NCP prosecutions, when I get it, I will ask and let you know.

 

If you use terms like 'ultra vires' in the Courts I visit, you better bring a Collins Latin/English dictionery with you!

[Zamzara]

These offences (in railway car parks) were prosecuted in the past. I have asked for an address for NCP prosecutions, when I get it, I will ask and let you know.

 

Yes, it would be interesting to know under what law. Perhaps there is something else in force...

[Al27]

NCP Prosecutions? Good luck with that

[rickyquicky]

I think that before anyone gets brave, and ignores parking 'penalties' (please forget the semantics) for offences in railway station car parks, they should understand that railway byelaws are used by train companies and their agents all the time.

 

Ignoring a railway leads to prosecution in Magistrates Court. I must confess, I haven't had any dealings with parking in a railway car par since about 1997, but in those halcyon days, British Transport Police prosecuted these cases. I think that my local line has contracted the management of their car parks to NCP, and I know that NCP put railway Byelaws (quite correctly) at the entrance to all those car parks. I think that NCP also deal with the other railway in Essex.

 

The OP is troubled, so we are told, by RPSS, which is part, I believe, of Southeastern Railways. Foriegn country to me, but I think from threads in the 'railway' area that Southeastern have a very proficient team of prosecutors.

 

 

There is no mention of byelaws in any part of the railway station in question. It is a tiny car park, with 2 signs that mention the terms and conditions of parking, and who it is operated by (it is actually Meteor, not NCP).

 

So this sounds like they have a problem if as you put it "NCP put railway Byelaws (quite correctly) at the entrance to all those car parks"?

[neeze9]

I thought I recognised your name... I did advise on 6th January 2010 that the penalty fare you received last year would be statute barred after 6 months.

 

Good luck with avoiding this fare too... and yes I also remember how you responded to my advice that you had got away with it. Thanks for that.

 

I would advise that you always pay your fare when travelling on the railway or using the car park facilities provided by Southeastern.

[rickyquicky]

I thought I recognised your name... I did advise on 6th January 2010 that the penalty fare you received last year would be statute barred after 6 months.

 

Good luck with avoiding this fare too... and yes I also remember how you responded to my advice that you had got away with it. Thanks for that.

 

I would advise that you always pay your fare when travelling on the railway or using the car park facilities provided by Southeastern.

 

Because I don't appreciate people like you and the other 'pro' southeastern posters on the threads that take great pleasure in taking the moral high ground and dictating what is right and wrong when they read a thread on a consumer forum.

 

I suggest you re-read the entire other thread where you posted on 6th Jan. And then you might like to reconsider your statement 'getting away with it' and 'avoiding a fare' when you will clearly see my 'crime' was misplacing my season ticket, even though I had a proof of purchase, the ticket inspector checked on the system with my ID to confirm I had indeed paid for a monthly season ticket (as I had done monthly for 2 years), and I was let through the barriers at the start of my journey as the guard there was satisfied with the documentation I did have. In effect it was entrapment.

 

So when is losing a monthly season ticket but being allowed to travel due to ID and reciepts 'avoiding a fare'? Could you specify which fare I didnt pay?

 

In THIS thread the issue is a paid parking ticket not being completely visible. I parked at the station monday to friday every week for 3 years, and recieved 1 parking charge notice. Its not fare evasion, its a company that employs people who fall over backwards to fine and penalise its users, whilst providing a service that is nothing more than sub-standard.

Edited September 20, 2010 by rickyquicky

[Al27]

Obviously it has that is why the thread was started? To my mind this is the same process as RTA 1984 excess charge notices, the staute gives the power to issue the charge but the charge is not a fine its a (penalty) charge. With fare evasion the operator has 2 options they can a) issue a fixed penalty fare b) use the Courts to prosecute with parking its the same the operator can levy a fixed penalty charge for breach of byelaw or take it to Court.

 

..and the operator has to decide which they're going for. Northern Railways manage it with no problems.