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Required Notice Period - Landlord being an arse


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I had a 12 month Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement with my landlord, which expired in March this year. The notice period in that agreement was 2 months.

My understanding was that as we did not renew that agreement (we signed no further agreements) our tenancy would roll into a statutory periodic agreement, whereby we gave one months notice to leave.

 

I actually sublet from my sister (landlord is aware), and so she is actually handing in the notice, but the landlord is now saying the notice period is actually 2 month as an extension of the tenancy was signed.

My sister has confirmed she signed no such extension, but the landlord has provided a photocopy of a document, dated at the same time as the original tenancy that states the notice period is two months, this is not attached to the tenancy, has no heading/title, and simply states that the notice period is two months and is reference to the tenancy agreement.

 

Where do we stand? What is the notice period?

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The document that the landlord has provided in addition to the tenancy agreement states.

 

"It is hereby agreed by all parties that under the agreement dated 11th March 2009 either party may give two months notice from a rent due date from EXPIRY OF the afforementioned agreement in writing to terminate at the property known as and situated at blah blah.

 

Does this basically mean my sister has agreed to give two months notice ven after the tenancy agreement has expired?

Also, I realise this is probably wishful thinking, but it says MAY give 2 months notice, which suggests it is optional rather than obligatory?

 

I am so confused!

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I think he's trying to pull a fast one here

Ask him for the original, any fool can make a photocopy of something like an agreement

Any discrepancies will show up on the original and besides he should have the original anyway

If he refuses he's hiding something

Whilst on a statutory periodic tenancy you do only have to give a months notice

I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you! :p

 

 

I have been smoke-free for 4yrs

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  • 3 weeks later...

Section 5 (3) (e) of the Housing Act 1988 applies. Where you are on a statutory periodic tenancy " the [...] terms are the same as those of the fixed term tenancy immediately before it came to an end, except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy

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Or in non legal speak, the tenant cannot "sign away" his legal rights. One month notice, irrespective of what the agreement says.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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Aequitas & Mr Shed, could this addendum, if it was legit, not be construed to make the current periodic tenancy a Contractual Periodic Tenancy and not a Statutory one? In which case, the provisions of (5)(3)(e) would not apply.

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Sheddy clear some space lol

I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you! :p

 

 

I have been smoke-free for 4yrs

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Aequitas & Mr Shed, could this addendum, if it was legit, not be construed to make the current periodic tenancy a Contractual Periodic Tenancy and not a Statutory one? In which case, the provisions of (5)(3)(e) would not apply.

 

I think not, because as we are all aware, the conditions of what is and what isnt an Assured Shorthold Tenancy (either fixed or statutory periodic) is determined by the Housing Acts NOT whats in your tenancy agreement.

 

I suspect their are lots of LLs out their who would jump at the chance to put in a longer/shorter notice period if it resulted in a loop hole that made their particular contract governed by contract law rather than statute!

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Yay for Planner, one of our resident experts! ;)

I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you! :p

 

 

I have been smoke-free for 4yrs

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I think not, because as we are all aware, the conditions of what is and what isnt an Assured Shorthold Tenancy (either fixed or statutory periodic) is determined by the Housing Acts NOT whats in your tenancy agreement.

The law only applies to statutory periodic tenancies, not contractual ones. The difference may depend on the wording of the initial AST. Think of it in the same way that a landlord can include a break condition that says the tenant must give 2 months notice. I know Aequitas has posted on the subject of CPTs on another site, so I await his opinion.

I suspect their are lots of LLs out their who would jump at the chance to put in a longer/shorter notice period if it resulted in a loop hole that made their particular contract governed by contract law rather than statute!
There are pros and cons, and not every landlord knows what can and can't be done. There is certainly nothing that prevents a landlord offering a tenant a shorter notice period, and equally nothing to prevent the landlords notice period to be extended in a contract.
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Sheddy clear some space lol

 

Yay for Planner, one of our resident experts! ;)

 

?????

 

I'm no expert, and I admit I could be wrong, but my 4 years and 200+ posts hopefully suggest I have at least some idea of what I'm talking about . ;) I know I'm not a regular, but that's only because I don't like the layout of the site.

Edited by Snorkerz
Feeling miffed.
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Lol Snorkerz I'm sure CG wasnt intending it to come across like that ;)

 

Also - yes, how horrible is the new layout!

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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The law only applies to statutory periodic tenancies, not contractual ones.

 

I think you are missing the point. A contract which starts out as an AST is always an AST as long as the conditions set in statute that make it an AST remain true. No clauses inserted in it by the LL can change that or reduce the tenants rights offered by that.

 

So while your statement above is true (if by contractural you mean tenancys that cannot be an AST as set out in statute rather than a AST tenancy with no fixed term), it is irrelevant in this instance as the O/P has confirmed in post 1 that they so indeed have a AST.

 

Your bit about break clauses again, seems irrelevant, as break clauses are not specific precluded/defined in statute in the same way as notice periods for periodics are.

 

I agree that a LL can offer a tenent a shorter notice or themselves a longer notice period as this, again, appears not to be precluded by statute. All your 'examples' are things that can be done that dont conflict with what the Housing Acts say i.e. increases the tenants 'rights' rather than reducing them, which is not the case with our O/P.

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?????

 

I'm no expert, and I admit I could be wrong, but my 4 years and 200+ posts hopefully suggest I have at least some idea of what I'm talking about . ;) I know I'm not a regular, but that's only because I don't like the layout of the site.

I cant stand the new layout either but change is inevitable i'm told and if people come here with problems we have to try to help them regardless of whether we like the site or not!

I'm not being funny snorkerz but i havent seen you here much (granted ive been off for a while) but i have been on here for 4 years too and have hardly seen you, and when i have seen your posts it seems like you are picking fault with advice given by others who have given their advice a lot more regular than you,

To be honest i thought you were a troll to start with lol

No offence intended but i do like to have my say..............................i am female after all :)

Edited by callumsgran
spelling FFS......fat finger syndrome lol

I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you! :p

 

 

I have been smoke-free for 4yrs

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Planner: I am not talking about tenancies that are not covered by the 1988 Housing Act.

 

After a fixed term, a tenancy can either become a "statutory periodic tenancy" as per s5 of the 1988 act, OR it can become a "contractual periodic tenancy", which while it still has the protection of the 1988 act, it is NOT created as a result of section 5 and therefore isn't affected by the s5 SPT notice periods. To become a CPT, the initial tenancy agreement must specify that that is what will happen (instead of the default SPT).

 

Callumsgran: If here is a chance that other posters could be wrong (maybe on an obscure technicality) would you rather I let the OP have the wrong info, and in some cases end up in court with a non-existant (or wrong) defence? What would be the point of posting to repeat info others had already posted? My original post on this this thread wasn't critical, it was asking a question of 2 highly respected members, both of whom I know frequent other landlord sites I contribute to, and Aequitas (under a different non-de-plume) may actually be my original source of info regarding CPTs.

 

I would ask all members to consider my posts carefully, and if you think my posts are wrong, then check out the facts and post the correct version on the thread - that would be far more useful to the OP than sycophantic comments. Just because I am not a 'regular' does not automatically mean I am wrong.

 

Finally I'd like to make it clear that I, and indeed you, have no obligation to help other people on the site!!! We give our time freely because we want to help - fine. But if any obstacles are put in my way, I have no obligation to stay. :censored:

 

So I shall say bye bye for a while - with a plea to Mr Shed and Aequitas to comment on my previous post to ensure that OP doesn't get the wrong info.

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Snorkerz - it would be a shame for you to say bye bye for a while, you make some very good contributions here, including on this thread.

 

In respect to the actual question, I am of the opinion that merely stating what will happen with regards the notice period would NOT constitute the entire creation of a CPT as opposed to an SPT, in particular as it is not a substantive contract. However, I see the reasoning, and would certainly be interested in Aequitas' opinion.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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After a fixed term, a tenancy can either become a "statutory periodic tenancy" as per s5 of the 1988 act, OR it can become a "contractual periodic tenancy".

 

This is where we differ. I dont think that this is possible. A fixed term AST becomes a statutory periodic. I can see no mechanism in the Housing Act 1988, other than signing another fixed term (or contractral AST) for it to become anything else.

 

As a vertran poster I would have expected you to not be so offended by another O/P disagreement? If I am wrong, fine, I wont go off in a huff, can I ask you do the same?

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I'd just like to reply that YOU said you were a regular snorkerz but to me and others 200+ posts over 4 yrs is not that regular and the site has only just changed!:|

 

I apologise if ive offended you but how was i or anybody else for that matter supposed to know that you do already know our resident experts?

To an outsider (first time poster), it looked like you were deliberately finding fault with their advice!

I now accept that you werent so will now drop the subject.

I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you! :p

 

 

I have been smoke-free for 4yrs

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