parked adjacent to dropped kerb

[dave_cumbria]

Hi

I have received a ticket for parking adjacent to a dropped kerb.

I feel that this has been given to me in error for the followinbg reasons.

1. The lowest point from the road to the kerb is 70mm.

2. I was told by the traffic warden that dropped kerbs are always opposite each other. I was not parked opposite the dropped kerb on the other side of the road.

Please see attached photos.

What do you think?

 

(I was parked on the yellow lines as I was taking my disabled father to the dentist)

 

Many thanks for your help.

[ForestChav]

Uhh, you were parked on a double yellow line, right?

[Surfer01]

Uhh, you were parked on a double yellow line, right?

Which is allowed with a Blue badge and for drop offs but not parking.

[ForestChav]

Which is allowed with a Blue badge and for drop offs but not parking.

And was the blue badge - if he has one - correctly displayed? Can this be proved?

 

Also, the post refers to parking and NOT dropping off. If he was dropping off his father and showing the blue badge then yes, it would be legal. But there is clearly sufficient reason in the warden's mind that 1. there was no badge displayed or 2. the time period was more than "dropping off"...

 

Additionally, why the hell is the point about the kerb relevant if he is contesting parking on a double yellow line?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

And was the blue badge - if he has one - correctly displayed? Can this be proved?

 

Also, the post refers to parking and NOT dropping off. If he was dropping off his father and showing the blue badge then yes, it would be legal. But there is clearly sufficient reason in the warden's mind that 1. there was no badge displayed or 2. the time period was more than "dropping off"...

 

Additionally, why the hell is the point about the kerb relevant if he is contesting parking on a double yellow line?

 

Probably because according to the OP the penalty was for parking adjacent to the dropped kerb.

 

OP, can you scan and post the PCN, both sides and washed of personal details.

 

I'm inclined to agree that the kerp was not "dropped" for the purposes of the legislation but will need to look it up to be sure.

 

If the kerb is not dropped then alighting and/or blue badge exemptions are irrelevant if, as you say, the contravention alleged is a dropped kerb one.

[ForestChav]

but in any case, he shouldn't be *parking* there because of the yellow lines - exemptions about dropped kerbs and blue badges/dropping aside.

 

Aside from which, I'd love to see this in court... "yes I know I parked on a yellow line but I was fined for a dropped kerb and it isn't dropped but I still parked illegally". It's like saying "I know I was doing 40 past a 30 sign but the 30 sign wasn't in compliance with TSRGD" - err, yes, they have to do it properly but you still understood what the sign meant and still sped past it. In any case, it's the TROs which matter not the signage.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

but in any case, he shouldn't be *parking* there because of the yellow lines - exemptions about dropped kerbs and blue badges/dropping aside.

 

Aside from which, I'd love to see this in court... "yes I know I parked on a yellow line but I was fined for a dropped kerb and it isn't dropped but I still parked illegally". It's like saying "I know I was doing 40 past a 30 sign but the 30 sign wasn't in compliance with TSRGD" - err, yes, they have to do it properly but you still understood what the sign meant and still sped past it. In any case, it's the TROs which matter not the signage.

 

Sorry you are wrong in so many ways!

 

Firstly there is still an exemption for dropping off on DYLs.

 

Secondly, the notion that "the contravention for which the PCN was issued may not have been correct but we could have issued it for another" has no validity in parking enforcement.

 

Thirdly, the overwhelming probability is that this was issued by a CEO in which case it will go nowhere near a court.

 

Fourthly, signage does matter. There have been oodles of decisions by adjudicators on inadequate signage.

 

Fifthly, when you say It's like saying

"I know I was doing 40 past a 30 sign but the 30 sign wasn't in compliance with TSRGD"

you would be relating to a criminal matter in which case Davies v Heatley can be cited.

[ForestChav]

Sorry you are wrong in so many ways!

 

Firstly there is still an exemption for dropping off on DYLs.

But he has said he was parking and not dropping off - in any case, if it was the latter it would be for a short time period, don't they have to wait 5 minutes or something - or he would still be in the car AND the blue badge would have to be displayed presumably.

 

Secondly, the notion that "the contravention for which the PCN was issued may not have been correct but we could have issued it for another" has no validity in parking enforcement.

Which is precisely why they get thrown out - if the contravention is for parking on a dropped kerb when the kerb is not dropped then they haven't issued it properly so it should be BUT if you're parking on a DYL without exemptions then you aren't parking legally regardless of them getting the contravention wrong, and they can't apply them retrospectively.

 

Thirdly, the overwhelming probability is that this was issued by a CEO in which case it will go nowhere near a court.

Depends. It doesn't look dropped at all, if that is what the pcn shows and we don't have any other points relating to nature/length of stay and/or blue badges then quite frankly the ticket should be appealed on those grounds alone. If the appeals fail then it possibly may well be contested at a higher level...

Fourthly, signage does matter. There have been oodles of decisions by adjudicators on inadequate signage.

 

Fifthly, when you say It's like saying you would be relating to a criminal matter in which case Davies v Heatley can be cited.

But again, they are getting off on a technicality when they are KNOWING they are committing a crime/offence and that the signage gives them licence to break the law anyway. (An acquaintance who is a law graduate and works as a signage technician now would disagree on both points :s)

[crem]

Why are you going off on a tangent ForestChav? The PCN has been issued for a dropped kerb contravention. Nothing to do with DYL, parking near a corner, or whether Santa will turn up on Christmas Day is relevant to this issue! If the "dropped kerb" does not meet the criteria to qualify as an official dropped kerb, the the defence is simply "the contravention did not occur". End of.

[ForestChav]

Then he should appeal the ticket on those grounds. Simple as. Let them see the photos of the yellow lines as well. It might help his appeal.

[crem]

Then he should appeal the ticket on those grounds. Simple as. Let them see the photos of the yellow lines as well. It might help his appeal.

 

Yes he should appeal on those grounds. Although from your post it appears you are trying to sarcastically imply that "if he appeals using a photo that shows the yellow lines, then they will change the contravention to be parked on Double Yellow Lines." They can't!

 

Once a PCN is issued it cannot be amended or another PCN issued for another contravention that wasn't raised at the time.

[ForestChav]

Well, we really need the OP to give us more information than the technicalities of the kerb dropping. I've looked into a few things, and basically, he's parked next to a dropped kerb on a double yellow line right next to a junction (within 10 metres is not allowed) - the kerb *is* dropped, as car2.jpg shows, whether or not this is the "required" distance for a dropped kerb is for the appeal to decide. The pcn will probably be for a specific offence which will have a code. Also, councils know (and keep a list) of unenforceable sites, these will usually be made aware to the wardens who will know not to issue tickets for these sites - it costs them money to handle all the appeals so they tend not to give convictions in non-compliant areas.

 

You can basically park for 5 hours with a correctly displayed (i.e. clock showing) disabled badge even on a DYL provided it is not breaking any other rules, and we don't know even if a badge was displayed. I would be very surprised if that defence would stand up basically because the kerb is dropped, you can see this by the sagging on the pavement by the car, also the proximity to the junction would mean that it is causing an obstruction to pedestrians crossing and emerging traffic.

 

He can surely exercise his right to appeal on the grounds that the kerb isn't dropped by a certain distance but given the other circumstances I would be pretty surprised if it was going to succeed. It's just arguing technicalities and the kerb IS lowered. If it was somewhere where they persistently ticketed and the installation was found NOT to be TSRGD compliant then they would simply tell their wardens not to issue tickets there.

[crem]

Hi

I have received a ticket for parking adjacent to a dropped kerb.

 

Well, we really need the OP to give us more information than the technicalities of the kerb dropping.

He seems to have been clear enough in his opening post that it was issued for a "dropped kerb". What more information are you needing?

 

 

I've looked into a few things, and basically, he's parked next to a dropped kerb

A "dropped kerb" needs a matching one on the opposite side of the road, which the OP says is not there.

 

on a double yellow line

not relevant, as previously stated

 

right next to a junction (within 10 metres is not allowed)

no such law. The 10mtr "rule" is only highway code "advise" in which they say you SHOULD not park near a corner. Law is shown when the highway code states MUST not, and refers you to an actual law.

 

- the kerb *is* dropped, as car2.jpg shows,

see above

whether or not this is the "required" distance for a dropped kerb is for the appeal to decide. The pcn will probably be for a specific offence which will have a code. Also, councils know (and keep a list) of unenforceable sites, these will usually be made aware to the wardens who will know not to issue tickets for these sites

in your dreams!

 

- it costs them money to handle all the appeals so they tend not to give convictions in non-compliant areas.

ha ha

 

 

You can basically park for 5 hours with a correctly displayed (i.e. clock showing) disabled badge even on a DYL provided it is not breaking any other rules, and we don't know even if a badge was displayed. I would be very surprised if that defence would stand up basically because the kerb is dropped, you can see this by the sagging on the pavement by the car, also the proximity to the junction would mean that it is causing an obstruction to pedestrians crossing and emerging traffic.

 

He can surely exercise his right to appeal on the grounds that the kerb isn't dropped by a certain distance but given the other circumstances I would be pretty surprised if it was going to succeed. It's just arguing technicalities and the kerb IS lowered. If it was somewhere where they persistently ticketed and the installation was found NOT to be TSRGD compliant then they would simply tell their wardens not to issue tickets there.

read around CAG as to how often areas that are known to be non compliant still come up as PCNs all the time

..

[ForestChav]

Right, then recommend the OP appeals and see if they uphold it. Simple.

[qa19]

this doens't look like a dropped kurb to my eyes. Seems more like the road has dropped through bad maintenace which can happen. What are the measurements on the normal curb? Also the actual dropped curbs in the photo (photo2) have biege non slip surfaces indicating that this one isn't one.

[dragonkeeper]

There is nothing wrong with the dropped kerb were the car is parked. the other's that can be seen (non slip biege) textured for blind/partly sighted poeple to now where the footpath is lowered are merely curent regs for any replacements. If they where to re-new footpath along the side of the car then they would upgrade to textured flags. As to the hight of the kerb again if repaired (which would require major highway alterations) they would match current highway regs (exact hight eludes me at the moment)100mm seems right ( I am sure "crem" or other fellow cagger's may have reg hight, and post it for me.

On some highways over the years of constant maintenance can be quite close to the top of existing footpath. Other highways could subside and and kerb could be 200mm

 

 

 

 

dk

 

ps; think mis-spelt hight (looks wrong)

[dave_cumbria]

Hi

Sorry for the delay in replying. I can't believe how helpful you have been.

Sorry for not clarifying better, the PCN was issued for parking adjacent to a dropped kerb, sorry I can't scan the PCN.

The blue badge was correctly displayed. All legal. No problems with this aspect.

After I stated to the warden that there was no dropped kerb where I was parked, they then took many photos of the scene, including the blue badge and clock and my 85 year old Dad getting into the car.

 

Update: after gatting intouch with the County Council Highways Authority regarding dropped kerbs, this morning I have received the specification for a "kerbed footway crossing"

It clearly states a "25 mm upstand" between the road surface and the top of the dropped kerb.

 

Again thank you for your help.

[Surfer01]

Forestchav as far as I am aware it is not a criminal offence to park on double yellow lines. Isn't it a civil issue even though it is council. Same applies to a lot of motoring offences regarding parking.

[crem]

If they did want a dropped kerb in that location, they would have to do some major works to relocate the drain. You can't have wheelchairs and pushchairs coming off the footpath and wedging a wheel straight into a drain cover! Most likely, they would locate it 5 or 6 feet further from the drain. IMO this cannot constitute a "dropped kerb" access.

[qa19]

If they did want a dropped kerb in that location, they would have to do some major works to relocate the drain. You can't have wheelchairs and pushchairs coming off the footpath and wedging a wheel straight into a drain cover! Most likely, they would locate it 5 or 6 feet further from the drain. IMO this cannot constitute a "dropped kerb" access.

 

well spotted. I think this alone would be enough evidence to suggest it isn't.

[dave_cumbria]

Again thanks for all your help. I have draughted my appeal which will be posted tomorrow. I will let you know how I get on.

[green_and_mean]

You can basically park for 5 hours with a correctly displayed (i.e. clock showing) disabled badge even on a DYL provided it is not breaking any other rules

 

Its actually 3 hours!

[dragonkeeper]

If they did want a dropped kerb in that location, they would have to do some major works to relocate the drain. You can't have wheelchairs and pushchairs coming off the footpath and wedging a wheel straight into a drain cover! Most likely, they would locate it 5 or 6 feet further from the drain. IMO this cannot constitute a "dropped kerb" access.

 

Sorry crem if you look at the pics the drain is located to the side of levelled dropped kerb ie: were the kerb transitions between levels.

 

For myself if I had disabled passenger with me I would of parked away from drop kerb so that my passenger could have easy access to footpath. :idea:

 

 

 

 

 

dk

[crem]

Sorry crem if you look at the pics the drain is located to the side of levelled dropped kerb ie: were the kerb transitions between levels.

I would still say that would be too close for safety's sake to have a drain near a dropped kerb

 

For myself if I had disabled passenger with me I would of parked away from drop kerb

The OP has measured the height at the alledged dropped kerb and found it to be 70mm high, therefore it's not a dropped kerb.

so that my passenger could have easy access to footpath. :idea:

dk

..

[dragonkeeper]

fair comment crem;)

 

 

 

dk