Fenton Cooper admits to not having my CCA

[stunned_monkey]

WOOHOO! I got that magic letter some others have stating that:

 

"We acknowledge that until we comply with our obligation to send you a copy of your credit agreement.... we cannot enforce your credit agreement through the courts. That is not in dispute"

 

Then go on to say that the debt is still mine and I owe it, and they can prove it etc so the account is not in dispute.

 

Well it will be in 11 days' time....

 

Can someone point me to that wonderful quote from the bloke who wrote the CCA law stating that they deserve to find it unenforcible if they can't be bothered to keep accurate records (or similar)?

 

Am I wrong in the head to find this stuff actually quite fun....? It reminds me a bit of Welcome to the 419 Eater

[stunned_monkey]

Just to point out that link has nothing to do with CAG and/or debt

[stunned_monkey]

My letter is attached (2 pages). I'd appreciate any comments, although my approach would appear to be pretty clear cut from now on! (Edit, need to sort out the attachments)

[stunned_monkey]

With a PDF instead....

Document1.pdf

[baileyboy]

Your "account" is unenforceable untill or if they find the paperwork. What they are trying to do now is turn it into a "moral" issue.

You can only guide yourself on the morality part of this debt. Its not for us to lead you Monkey.

[Bazooka Boo]

Send them monopoly money to the value of os balance, and then report them to the ICO for processing your data which is a breach of the DPA.

Besides their bark is worse than their bite by wrongly quoting that case. Inncompetent fools.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/254802-no-cca-processing-your.html

[count orlok]

On the moral issue, tell them you consider your share of the tax payer bail out of the banks more than fulfills your obligation to pay back.

[stunned_monkey]

Cheers guys - I do not feel morally obliged at all. If they can't stick to the law, why should I lose sleep over it? The whole thing stems from being fed up with them constantly pestering me to increase my payments. I probably wouldn't have bothered looking for help but for that. (BTW anyone with a BlackBerry and nuisance DCAs, check out the "BuzzOff" app - it allows you to bar calls with automatic pickup-and-hangup, including "no-number" callers).

 

The letter makes very interesting reading when you actually get down to it - for example using the word "dispute" when not referring to the legal sense of the word as it applies in these cases. Also the line that says "...we are entitled to carry out any actions that do not amount to enforcing the Agreement including demanding payment,..." - I read that carefully a few times before realising what it meant. Demanding payment is not enforcing the Agreement - in other words, they can ask as much as they want, except obviously I can start invoicing for letters and complaining about harrassment.

 

I'm not wholly up on the McGuffick case - I presume in his case, there was a signed agreement that he was disputing. In my case there is no agreement, therefore ***makes the two-fingered salute***. Right?

 

I know they can't issue a default on an account already in default.

 

Let the games begin...8-)

[Bazooka Boo]

The whole thing stems from being fed up with them constantly pestering me to increase my payments. I probably wouldn't have bothered looking for help but for that.

 

And that my friend is exactly why so many people find CAG, because of the sheer greed of these finacial institutions.

 

(BTW anyone with a BlackBerry and nuisance DCAs, check out the "BuzzOff" app - it allows you to bar calls with automatic pickup-and-hangup, including "no-number" callers).

Cheers top tip, I'll get that;)

 

Just type the name of that case in CAG's toolbar, (which youv'e downloaded...right?) and it should flag it up, have a read, and prepare to be amazed at the DJ lottery!

 

Pretty much they wrongly refer back to that case whenever they feel threatened as it gives them a modicum of hope, when in actual fact that is simply one case and does not set a precedent for any other cases, so for them to pull that one out of the bag is a very good indication youv'e got them running scared, just keep a diary of events from now on with a view to reporting them to the Police for the offence of harassment, and each and every time they send you anything begging for money, file a separate complaint each time with the OFT/TS via Consumer Direct.

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

[stunned_monkey]

Okay, after reading a lot of other threads, I've decided to be proactive. Before sending off my "failure to comply" letter, I think it might be a smart move to get a letter in to the CRA's, on the basis that they can't hide behind the excuse that "we just accept their word for it" when this does turn nasty with FC. I don't seriously think for one second that this will have the slightest effect, but with recorded delivery receipts etc in my file, it will make my case down the line a lot tighter.

 

I intend on sending the following to all three CRAs - I'd appreciate any comments before doing so:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I write with regards the data you may be asked to process in my name by a Debt Collection Agency called Fenton Cooper, part of the Tessera Group, located at:

 

Fenton Cooper

5th Floor

Maitland House

Warrior Square

Southend-on-Sea

SS1 2JS

 

I recently made a request under s.77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a true copy of the credit agreement relating to a debt they are attempting to collect, together with any other documentation the Act requires them to provide.

 

They replied with a letter, a copy of which is enclosed, in which they admit to having no Consumer Credit Agreement (CCA) pertaining to the alleged debt. This renders the debt unenforceable in law.

 

As you can also see, they go on to say that despite this, they will continue to take action including “registering the debt with Credit Reference Agencies”.

 

I would like to draw your attention to a clear distinction between

 

1) an unenforceable CCA (as was the case with McGuffick vs RBS)

2) No CCA altogether

 

By Fenton Cooper’s own admission, no CCA is held in my name and therefore they do not have my consent to process my data and any attempt to do so will be a clear infringement of the Data Protection Act.

 

I am aware of the “trust” relationship between yourselves and the debt collection industry, and that you accept their data without independent checks.

 

Please consider this letter formal notification of Fenton Cooper’s LACK OF AUTHORITY in my case.

Yours faithfully,

[stunned_monkey]

I sent off the above letter to all three CRA's this morning, recorded delivery etc.

 

Here's my letter to FC which will go off on Monday. It's a heavily modified version of the template letter which I must say is a bit out of date now since McGuffick:

 

 

 

Fenton Cooper

5th Floor

Maitland House

Warrior Square

Southend-on-Sea

SS1 2JS

 

15/8/10

 

Dear Fenton Cooper, (their letter to me said simply "Dear Surname" and was signed "Fenton Cooper")

 

Re: Account xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter of 3/8/10 the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement (CCA) for the above account within the required 12 day time limit and as such the account entered default on 15/8/10.

 

This alleged debt is now in dispute and I do not acknowledge it as my responsibility.

 

Within your letter, I note with particular interest your claim that you are “entitled to carry out any actions which do not amount to enforcing the agreement including demanding payment, charging interest, transferring the debt to a third party, registering the debt with a credit reference agency and issuing a default notice”

 

Please cite the legislation that entitles you to taking these actions. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’. I note your reference the McGuffick v RBS case, citing that it maintains your right to register any default with the credit reference agencies even though the agreement is unenforceable.

 

You are wrong.

 

There is a difference between:

 

1) An unenforceable CCA (as in McGuffick’s case)

2) No CCA at all.

 

Due to the lack of a signed CCA, you may consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any regulatory authorities as I see fit.You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I hereby formally request that from your receipt of this letter, you contact me in writing only. I draw your attention to CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you

 

Yours Faithfully

[Bazooka Boo]

Sounds good to me! Very restrained and matter of fact, well done.

[stunned_monkey]

Thanks!

 

BTW I re-worded the last bit of my CRA warning letter as follows:

 

As no CCA is held in my name, they do not have my consent to process my data and any attempt to do so will be a clear breach of the Data Protection Act (DPA).

I am aware of the “trust” relationship between yourselves and the debt collection industry, and that you accept their data without independent checks.

Please consider this letter formal notification that unless Fenton Cooper can provide proof of my consent, to pass any of my data to you, and for you to accept it, will be a breach of the DPA.

Yours faithfully,

[Bazooka Boo]

Agree...CRA's live in the pockets of DCA's and need to clean up their act.

[stunned_monkey]

Well, I never thought this would happen!

 

I'm under no illusions and they may simply sell the debt on, but any future attempts to collect by anyone else will be met with a copy of our exchange, and an invitation to go forth and multiply. I wish it were this easy for everyone on here!

 

That's £6800 written off for the sake of two letters. I'm still in mild shock! I can feel a donation for the CAG coming on....

fenton are done.pdf

[Halibutt]

Well done! 8-)

[ScarletPimpernel]

If you get an unsatisfactory reply from the CRAs, send them a copy of FC's final letter, and ask them to explain how a company that is no longer dealing with a matter can continue to register a default.

[stunned_monkey]

My account went into default originally with HSBC in February 2005, but I will be watching it like a hawk from now on! Currently it has a red blob next to it on Experian which can mean "the lender has closed the account" apparently.

 

Interestingly. they state "A defaulted account is removed from your report after six years whether or not you have paid the debt in full. If you have paid some of the debt off, the balance should show how much you still owe."

This is interesting, because it suggests the account, even if still active, is removed from your file altogether after 6 years, which may explain why my Lowell debt (much smaller) doesn't appear at all, even though I'm still paying it.

 

HOPEFULLY this means that even though there's an outstanding debt, and the last activity was tracked as July this year, it'll still disappear off my record next February. (unless some unscrupulous so and so re-adds it as a new debt as I've seen others talk about on CAG).

 

Anyone care to comment?

[babybear39]

ICO DPA gross breach...Do not pass go etc...

[sillygirl1]

Do't forget to keep the Fenton Cooper letter safe and if anyone else tries to chase the alleged debt you can state that you know the CCA does not exist therefore the alleged debt is unenforceable and they can go forth.

[stunned_monkey]

Oh don't worry, sillygirl (hey, that's not meant to sound condescending!), While I am a bit of a one for losing stuff, but I've got full colour scans on the compute now so can reproduce a photocopy at any time

[marcander]

Hi there,

 

Just to confirm a point touched on earlier. A default is removed automatically from the credit file after 6 years from date of default. All information and reference to THAT debt is also removed and may not be re-instated on the CF by anyone, not the original lender nor any subsequent DCAs. Even if you are still paying on a formal/informal arrangement there must be no record on your credit file after 6 years from date of default. No reference to the debt is permitted.

This is your right and you should pursue this with CRAs if they do not remove.

The idea is that someone who carries on paying even a small amount over a long time say 8 years should be not be dis-advantaged, as regards credit file reporting, over someone who pays nothing at all and has the default removed after 6 years.

I have 3 informal payment arrangements that I have been paying for some 8 years now and my credit files show as excellent because all references to those debts were removed 2 years ago.

I am actually only paying 2 at the moment after CCA ing Moorcraft in feb this year and still not having received an agreement. Moorcraft still send intended litigation letters but I have the confidence that education brings from this forum.

I am just about to CCA Moorcraft again for an EGG card that I am still paying off after 8 years. I know that charges have been applied but if Egg/Moorcr cannot supply my CCA then I am happy with another stalemate. Account in dispute.

Anyways, the 6 year default rule with CRAs is definite, and there can only be one default on any account/debt.

thanks again

kindest regards

M