Do I have to pay this fine?

[DBC]

parking-fine, did you ever receive an answer to your latest email to Mobilise. The reason I ask, is that over on the MSE forum somebody did receive an answer. She was told that up to now they had only received correspondence from that person and myself. So what's happened to all the other emails that other people who have written to them?

[parking-fine]

No I never received a reply, just an 'out of office' message saying they would be back on 18th August.

 

I have received my first intimidating letter from UKCPS though! Still ignoring them.

[Coupon]

Well I emailed mobilise on a rarely-used email account and have just looked and have just seen that I got a reply when I was away. I think this is their 'sort of official reply' on the subject as they've asked me to publish it in full if I post it on an internet forum.

 

Here you go, my original email paragraphs are in blue below which they quoted as shown.

 

I won't comment in the interests of fairness, but please email Mobilise with what you all think and you 'should get a reply in 48 hours' (if you don't, email a second time as I had to). They are claiming it's only me and trisontana on MSE who have emailed them so far but I am sure others on pepipoo and here have also contacted them:

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Mrs xxxx (person otherwise known as Coupon ),

 

Thank you for your email. We will address the points that you have made separately.

 

'I contacted you before but got no reply.'

 

We’re afraid we don’t know what happened there. Apologies if it was an error at our end. We aim to answer all emails within 48 hours.

 

'I was until recently a Manager at a Disability Advice Centre and have a good opinion of mobilise. But I am shocked to see you taken in by a private parking company, UKCPS. This association is bringing your charity's name into disrepute and some internet forum posters are thinking of reporting the allegiance to the Charities Commission.'

 

We are well aware that there are problems within the private parking sector but it is only by working with organisations like UKCPS that we have any chance of improving the situation for disabled people. One of our reasons for working with these companies is because we are able to help educate them and their staff on Blue Badge and disability issues. It is not just UKCPS we work with but also MET parking, Q-park and Town and City parking to name but a few. One of the many activities our Information Officers carry out is helping members appeal parking tickets and since these companies have become corporate members this task has become considerably easier, as they are more able to understand why disabled people took longer or parked across two bays etc.

 

It is your opinion that it is not good for Mobilise to associate with these organisations. But by working with them, we have a real opportunity to improve their services for the benefit of people with disabilities.

 

I’d also like you to be aware that Mobilise does not receive any payment from UKCPS for issuing PCNs. All we do is charge them a corporate membership fee that gains them access to our information services and provides them with copies of our magazines.

 

We read a small number of the posts on the MSE forum but we believe it is not the place for Mobilise to try and have an open and frank discussion about our involvement with parking companies. You may be interested to know that it is only you and one other person who has actually written to Mobilise to express their views about Mobilise working with UKCPS. Should anyone else write to us then we would try to answer their concerns as best we can.

 

Forming allegiances with parking companies with the aim of improving their treatment of people with disabilities is not, in our opinion, any breach of guidance set out by the Charities Commission.

 

'Putting a sign up in a car park does NOT form an enforceable contract. If the sign said 'disabled bays are for those with mobility aids only' it would be illegal under the DDA. It is the same for signs which say 'disabled bays are for Blue Badge holders only' partly because the BB scheme doesn't apply on private land and partly because the DDA makes it clear what the definition of disability is - and as you know it's much more than mobility issues or having a Blue Badge'

 

Over 99% of private car parks require Blue Badges to be displayed in the accessible bays as evidence of a disability. This scheme, as I’m sure you know, covers not only wheelchair users and people with mobility problems but also people with visual impairments and those with a double upper limb disability to name but a few. Of course there are many more disabled people compared to Blue Badge holders but in a parking situation the car park would not have to provide an accessible bay for someone whose disability did not affect their ability to get to their destination, ie disabilities recognised by the Blue Badge scheme. For example, someone with a hearing impairment would not qualify for a Blue Badge, would not require an accessible bay and the parking company would not have to provide one for them. However, they may need to consider having alternative methods of communication if barrier type access was installed. Different disabilities need different provisions.

 

We understand your argument that the Blue Badge scheme is for on-street and Local Authority (LA) car parks, but it has been adopted by the private car park industry. The Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) also says providers have to do what is “reasonable” and we think most people would agree that using the same scheme that is used by all local authorities is “reasonable”. After all, using your argument, one may question why an LA is not in breach of the DDA by only providing accessible bays for Blue Badge holders and not all disabled people.

 

Mobilise is a membership charity and campaigning for accessible spaces to be kept free for Blue Badge holders is what our members tell us they want us to campaign on. This is the view of not just Mobilise but also SCOPE, The British Polio Fellowship and JCMD, which is a pan-disability group. We think we would be doing a disservice to our members and disabled people who rely on wider spaces close to their destination if we started asking for the Blue Badge scheme to be disregarded in private car parks.

 

'UKCPS are a private parking company, not some sort of enforcement agency! They issue tickets at the drop of a hat to anyone for any spurious reason, including to vulnerable disabled people. And then they don't cancel the tickets on appeal - they send scary debt collector letters. Please test this yourselves, anonymously.'

 

We know about some of the problems with companies such as UKCPS. It is only early days for us working with them and trying to improve their treatment of people with disabilities. Like we’ve already said it is far easier to get our views across when we can sit down and have a rational discussion.

 

'I see that you've replied to some people who post on Moneysavingexpert.com saying that you've asked the BPA for advice! The BPA are not independent, they are a trade association for private parking companies. They also know full well that private companies cannot 'fine' people (a 'parking charge notice' unrelated to any loss/damage is still a fine/penalty and is unlawful - so changing the word is just semantics)'.

 

As already mentioned we have only had correspondence from yourself and one other person. Mobilise has worked with the BPA for several years and we are represented on the Parking Forum – giving the opinions of people with disabilities on a variety of parking issues. For your information the BPA are not just an association for private parking companies they are also an association for manufacturers, car park operators, local authorities, health authorities, airports, railways, shopping centres, theme parks and consultants. The BPA has a different opinion to you on what a parking company can charge for a PCN. The rights and wrongs of what is lawful is a matter for the courts to decide. The current situation is that PCNs are issued and therefore Mobilise’s main concern is to help our members contest their PCNs if they are incorrectly or unfairly issued.

 

 

'Please, although you don't have money to spend on getting legal advice - at least test the system yourselves, anonymously. You will see what happens to people whose Blue Badge slips down, then get a UKCPS ticket. Try appealing it with a copy of the Blue Badge. Then be shocked by the barrage of debt collector letters that will follow. There's no risk to you by doing this, UKCPS won't actually take you to Court (they'd lose anyway). These companies rely on threats and your charity is associated with it'.

 

As we have already said we know there are problems. We’re doing our best to change them and make it better. It is a new relationship that we have with UKCPS and we cannot make improvements over night. They have also recognised that there are problems and this is one of the reasons they have turned to us for advice. There are also changes coming in through in government legislation which will hopefully make things a lot clearer for everyone in the near future.

 

'I feel the whole association is bringing mobilise into disrepute, and not only from the talk on internet forums (today's forum chat = tomorrows press articles). Just one case of a disabled person who then makes a complaint against UKCPS under the DDA is not going to look good. A DDA breach, the proceeds of which are being shared with mobilise!'

 

As we already stated we do not make any money from UKCPS issuing a PCN. You may not agree with us trying to improve the parking industry for the benefit of people with disabilities but we think it is the right thing to do. We don’t want to see Blue Badge holders being penalised for displaying a badge incorrectlyand we feel we have a really good opportunity to change these bad practices.

 

'Please take this issue seriously..I urge you to at least test the UKCPS modus operandi for yourselves. You will be shocked at the threats that their debt collectors send for a debt that is unenforceable in law (and they know it)'.

 

We are grateful for you writing and sharing your concerns and we can reassure you that we do take them seriously. We hear from our members about the problems they have had and this is why we want to change how parking companies work. We see our corporate membership scheme as a good way for us to do this.

 

If you wish to post this reply onto any internet forums please can we request that you print our reply in full.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

MOBILISE

[afcwben]

 

We understand your argument that the Blue Badge scheme is for on-street and Local Authority (LA) car parks, but it has been adopted by the private car park industry.

MOBILISE

It shows they have been drawn into the PPC clutches, mobilise are calling it an "Industry" what the **** does this industry produce, if you make cars you belong to the car making inductry etc etc

[DBC]

All that talk of fighting your case with the UKCPS . A much simpler solution is to ignore the PPC and they will go away. Engaging in a dialogue with them just gives a veneer of legitimacy to them.

[DBC]

Yet another story about the "ethical" UKCPS. This time from Pepipoo:-

 

I am a disabled man and I parked in a disabled parking space in Great Northern Retail Park Huddersfield just outside of Homebase.

I placed my blue badge on the dashboard slammed the door shut behind me and went in Homebase to pick up a paint card. it took me five minutes. When I returned to my car I noticed the Parking Notice Charge on my windscreen, on checking it, it said there was no badge displayed, I then noticed my badge had slipped to the floor. I went back into Homebase with my blue badge and the Manager agreed it was up to date. I then showed the notice to the guy at Perrys where I had just recently got my Motability car from, he was astounded and said, apart from anything else, your tax disc displays disabled on it. He contacted UKCPS and spoke to a guy in administration who was amazed the car was from Motability and said I hadn't to worry and to appeal. I returned to Homebase and saw one of UKCPS' staff with his tickets. I related the above to him, and he could see my disability. He said he hadn't given me the ticket but he would back up my appeal when he got back to the office.

I wrote my appeal and have just received a reply saying they sympathise with my situation but it is the driver's responsibility to ensure the blue badge is displayed (which I did), and that UKCPS are working to stamp out abuse of disabled bays, (but I wasn't abusing it), and the parking charge will stand...£100 reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days. I can't afford that. I am totally stressed out with all this, which doesn't help as stress increases my disability. I don't know what to do. I didn’t know of the existence of PePiPoo until after I appealed, which I now realise was the wrong thing to do.

 

Are you reading this Mobilise?

[letshelp]

Funny that UKCPS say they are working to stamp out blue badge abuse, how cynical, they would be devastated if no-one flouted 'THEIR RULES', especially the blue badge holders.

regards

[Coupon]

!!

 

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE!!

 

FB1969 posted this article by Helen Dophin, see the link as it's well worth a read:

 

'Not sure if this has already been posted, but it appears that...Helen Dolphin has been thoroughly brainwashed. www.disabilitynow.org.uk/living/motoring-section/tv-advice-just-isnt-the-ticket

 

 

 

NOW, having read that load of hogwash, now compare and contrast it to this interesting 'advice column' answer given by Helen Dolphin about Advisory Bays, it's undated but must presumably have been before Mobilise were brainwashed by UKCPS:

 

http://www.disabilitynow.org.uk/have...the-experts-27

 

quote

Neighbours use my bay QWhat do you have to do to make a disabled parking bay enforceable? My local housing association has put a disabled parking space in our car park but won't enforce it. This has made my life hell as I keep getting blocked in and can't go anywhere unless I know whose car is blocking me. Then I end up getting a mouthful of abuse when I ask them to move their car. It has taken five years to get a disabled bay marked out; what can I do to get it enforced?

 

Helen Dolphin answers:

I'm sorry to hear you have such thoughtless people living near you, as the disabled space that's marked outside your home relies to a certain degree on people's goodwill.

There are basically two types of bays and the bay outside your house is just an advisory bay, which means that the council doesn't formally restrict other vehicles from parking in them.

To enable this bay to be enforced would require a Traffic Regulatory Order (TRO). TROs can take a long time to implement and can cost a considerable amount of money, which in some areas local authorities are asking applicants to fund. I know that's not what you wanted to hear.

quote

 

 

 

 

So why then does Helen, an ex-news reporter I understand, insist in a widely-distributed article in the same publication (Disability Now) that a pattern of paint that she KNOWS FULL WELL is only an advisory bay suddenly transforms into somehow 'not advisory' and 'enforceable under contract law' when a PPC says so?

 

[lamma]

For a percentage.

[parking-fine]

I have received two letters from UKCPS and now my ‘fine’ has been referred to a company called “Court Proceedings Limited London”.

The letter reads as follows:-

 

DO NOT IGNORE THIS NOTICE

IMMEDIATE PAYMENT REQUIRED

We have been instructed by UKCPS Ltd to recover the above debt before court proceedings are instigated we have been authorised to offer you the opportunity to settle your debt in full by paying the reduced amount of £95.00

To accept this offer you must pay the amount in full within the next seven days. Your failure to comply to this final offer will automatically result in court action being progressed for the original debt in full plus all associated costs which could exceed £325.00.

A typical breakdown of costs is as follows:- Original amount £100.00

Preparation of court papers £50.00

Court and Hearing Costs £50.00

Expenses £125.00

Payments should be made by cheque to Court Proceedings Ltd or by phone.

TELEPHONE 08708 900 281

SETTLE TODAY FOR £95.00

 

Non payment or not contacting us on the above number will lead to immediate court action being progressed and could end up with you having a County Court Judgement against you which could severely damage your chances of getting credit or a mortgage in the future.

I must admit I am getting quite concerned now this has been referred to another company in London. BUT I am attempting to stay strong and ignore their letters. Nevertheless it is still VERY distressing.

[dpick]

That letter should have been headed "Crap proceedings Limited" The are still a private company nothing to do with the courts.

 

dpick

[DBC]

And that "company in London" operates out of a one-room accommodating address in Oxford Street .

[DBC]

I have received a reply from Mobilise over anther case I forwarded to them about concerning a disabled driver. For some reason they thought I was referring to my father, but never mind.

 

This is the incident:-

Hi - can anyone help with this - My father (79 years old and disabled) parked in a disabled bay in B and Q using a blue badge. He came out and found the car had a ticket on !!!

He also discovered that the car had been damaged on the front. The blue badge was in the footwell. So looking at it logically, rather than help my father by asking the person who damaged the front of his car with, we presume, a trolley, for insurance details, this 'helpful person' decided to ticket the car with £100 fine - five minutes recorded on the ticket.

As you can see the trip to B and Q was a streesful time.

My questions are these :

The ticket has no date on - how are you suppose to count the 14 days timescale allowed ? Is this illegal

The colour of the car was recorded wrong - is this legal ?

 

I have written to the company - UKCPS - they have said they are not listening and will enforce the debt through the courts. They have 'kindly' offered to reduce the fine to £44 and enrol my father in a disabled scheme - very generous indeed.

As we have not admitted who the driver of the car was, they have said that my father will be 'made' to tell the judge' etc etc etc. Bully boy tactics .....

I am not happy as you can imagine - ----

 

Any help appreciated from the forum

 

And this is the reply from Mobilise:-

Thank you for your email.

 

I was sorry to hear about your father's incident at the B&Q car park which led to a parking fine.

 

Private car parks operators are governed by the Contract Law which requires motorists entering private car parks to abide by their terms and conditions in this case UKCPS'. Any car park managed by the UKCPS requires all the vehicles parked in disabled parking spaces to display a valid Blue Badge. Failure to display the badge will result in issuing a parking fine.

 

In your father's case there was a chain of events and unfortunately a parking fine was issued. You will need to satisfy the parking operator that this incident did occur by providing evidence such as reference of the logged incident with the insurance company, reference of your complaint at the B&Q customer service desk, as well photographic or CCTV evidence etc.

 

All tickets must have an issue date, however, colour of the car which was wrongly described on the ticket may not be good enough reason for cancellation of the ticket.

 

Kind regards

 

 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Information Officer & Photo Editor for Mobilise Magazine

 

Mobilise Organisation

National Headquarters

Ashwellthorpe

Norwich

NR16 1EX

 

tel: 01508 489 449

fax: 01508 488 173

web: http://www.mobilise.info

thanks !!

[parking-fine]

I too have contacted Mobilise about the way I have been treated. My question to them was:-

 

"I wonder if you have approached (or would be happy to approach) UKCPS regarding their way of 'dealing' with the fact that they continue to harass and intimidate disabled people in this way. I forgot to put my blue badge in the window of my car, and appealed against the 'fine'. My appeal letter has been ignored and they are going to continue to frighten and intimidate me by sending me threatening letters.

 

I feel this is discrimination against disabled people.

What do you think?"

 

The reply I received from them was as follows:

We are in contact with UKCPS and all the complains and concerns have been passed on to them. But as I said earlier we cannot dictate how they choose to run their business. Their parking contract (which you have entered by parking on the property managed by UKCPS) would be stated that: if a vehicle is parked in a disabled space without displaying a valid Blue Badge then they are most likely to issue a parking ticket. These are the rules so I do not see this as a discrimination. They would act in the same manner regardless if the person was disabled or not.

However, I do sympathise with you that you feel penalised by forgetting displaying your badge. It is a costly mistake indeed.

All I can suggest is that if you decide to take up the offer from UKCPS and become a member of Mobilise then when you receive a parking ticket in the future we will be able to help or offer you advise.

I still think this is discrimination, but Mobilise disagree with me, and I am still in the situation where I am receiving threatening letters. Not a good place to be.

[DBC]

Mobilise should be ashamed of themselves for writing that reply. As for those threatening letters, just relax, nothing will come of them.

[letshelp]

The information officer at mobilise calls the invoices fines, now where did he/she get that nonsense from?

They talk about contract law, then go on to talk about fines they are clueless.

What is the nonsense about providing 'evidence' to a private company:-x

regards