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alfwithhair

Man kills his family and himself due to debt problems

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I think in this instance it probably refers to the meaning of clay as the body (as opposed to the soul ).

Hence we are without soul. Allegedly.:rolleyes:


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This was a needless tradgedy. If the so called freinds and family would have helped them before it might never have happened :(


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I've stated this elsewhere but tragic as it is and utter despair when faced with debts/dca's and their unscrupulous tactices can and do alter a persons perspective and in some cases (probably a lot) bring them to make irrational decisons (been there done that) and drive them to illegal actions...whatever ...but nothing should bring a man to kill his own children, particularly in the manner in which he did, stabbing them to death (allegedely) As individuals they have/had a right to live their own lives, it was in front of them etc ...suicide is one thing, often brought about by circumstance is awful, but murderiing two small children and partner and then taking your own life is to me somewhat cowardly...and on that point alone (and only that point because I can identify with the debt/pressure issue) I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

 

I sit here still and I still can't comprehend how a father can place a knife into the body of his children and extinguish their lives in front of his own eyes, that single thought seriously disturbs me.


I reside in Dawlish Warren but am not a rabbit.

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Latest reports state that the children were not stabbed and post mortem examinations have not been conclusive.

 

As to how someone can kill their own child, it should be borne in mind that when someone is unwell, their perception is altered. It is unrealistic to apply 'normal' standards. We cannot know how this particular individual felt, but in other cases it has appears that the perpetrator thought that by killing those close to them they are saving or protecting them from something worse, or there may be thoughts that they will all be together in the afterlife.

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My thoughts exactly SP.


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

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Latest reports state that the children were not stabbed and post mortem examinations have not been conclusive.

 

As to how someone can kill their own child, it should be borne in mind that when someone is unwell, their perception is altered. It is unrealistic to apply 'normal' standards. We cannot know how this particular individual felt, but in other cases it has appears that the perpetrator thought that by killing those close to them they are saving or protecting them from something worse, or there may be thoughts that they will all be together in the afterlife.

 

I'm a parent of young children, I'm in debt, I've suffered at the hands of debt collectors and I've been driven to the very edge of sanity, I've been incarcerated under the mental health act because of debt related issues..but at no point can or could I ever conceive taking the life of my children (felt like taking my own once or twice) for whatever reason and of course there can be a mulititude of reasons to try explain why somebody takes the life of another. sure the afterlife beckons (for some) and others see glory in death and whatever but taking the life of your own flesh and blood at their age and their innocence...to me there is simply no justification for that act whatsoever, their quality of life post their fathers demise may to him not look so rosy but that really would be a blinkered perception and selfish at that.

 

As for the 'stabbing' I did say 'allegedley' I'm sure it's media hype and hence why I've not visited that particular agrument

 

Death is inevitable, suicide is awful/desperate ut taking the like of your own healthy children is murder, nothing can dress that up.


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We're not trying to dress that up.


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This was a needless tradgedy. If the so called freinds and family would have helped them before it might never have happened :(

 

In reality, very few people will help.... and many so called friends and family often sit in judgement or drip feed false sympathy (the most useless kind of "help" I can think of).

 

They then wonder why tragedies like this happen....

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I'm a parent of young children, I'm in debt, I've suffered at the hands of debt collectors and I've been driven to the very edge of sanity, I've been incarcerated under the mental health act because of debt related issues..but at no point can or could I ever conceive taking the life of my children (felt like taking my own once or twice) for whatever reason and of course there can be a mulititude of reasons to try explain why somebody takes the life of another. sure the afterlife beckons (for some) and others see glory in death and whatever but taking the life of your own flesh and blood at their age and their innocence...to me there is simply no justification for that act whatsoever, their quality of life post their fathers demise may to him not look so rosy but that really would be a blinkered perception and selfish at that.

 

I think the important thing here is to remember that no-one can possibly know how another person feels. Although circumstances may be shared, each individual's experience will be unique, and their emotions, perceptions and reactions will differ.

 

 

 

Death is inevitable, suicide is awful/desperate ut taking the like of your own healthy children is murder, nothing can dress that up.

 

...except when it's manslaughter, which may apply in a case like this where there may be diminished responsibility due to abnormality of mind or impaired mental function.

 

In the past people didn't understand mental health, and consequently, for example, people were burnt as witches. At the other end of the scale, some mentally ill people were beatified - Bernadette of Lourdes, for example, had clear mental health symptoms. We've moved on, and must take account of physiological and pathological conditions, and of human frailty, or we run the risk of our justice system regressing.

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I think the important thing here is to remember that no-one can possibly know how another person feels. Although circumstances may be shared, each individual's experience will be unique, and their emotions, perceptions and reactions will differ.

 

 

 

 

...except when it's manslaughter, which may apply in a case like this where there may be diminished responsibility due to abnormality of mind or impaired mental function.

 

In the past people didn't understand mental health, and consequently, for example, people were burnt as witches. At the other end of the scale, some mentally ill people were beatified - Bernadette of Lourdes, for example, had clear mental health symptoms. We've moved on, and must take account of physiological and pathological conditions, and of human frailty, or we run the risk of our justice system regressing.

 

 

Christopher Foster who was also suffering financial problems and who went on to kill his daughter and wife and family pets was eventually tagged as murdering them by the coroner

Revealed: Why millionaire Christopher Foster slaughtered his family | Mail Online

 

I'm with you on not knowing how another feels and frankly I cannot begin to even comprehend his state of mind prior to him allegedly slaughtering his family. His wife was stabbed to death hence why I think the media used it to assume/report his children were slaughtered the same way.

 

It doesn't sit well with me in cases such as this that an alleged murderer is in someway excused for their actions because of problems such as debt and the associated problems being in debt can and often do cause.

 

I've read the headlines such as 'doting family man' and 'loving family man kills his family' and it's followed up by ' he may have been about to be made bankrupt' or 'was suffering from serious financial problems' it's as if the excuses for his actions, what loving/doting family man can possibly exterminate his healthy wife and children is altogether beyond me? At the point he drew their last breath from them his 'loving/doting' tag was forever removed...but more important is his associated financial problems or are being seen in someway as justification for essentially what is murdering 3 innocent people of which 2 were more than likely unable to defend themselves, they were killed in cold blood...it really is that simple.

 

If it is found that he was in debt and that untoward pressure by a creditor/dca/ whomever brought him to the edge then I hope they throw the book and then some at those involved...but they won't, this situation will inevitably happen again..and again etc, yuk!....but at the same time as this and as person in debt and parent of young children not too far off the ages of those in question..well I would hope that the coroner will eventually return with the correct verdict of murder because if not it gives in a twisted sort of way a green light to others in a similar position to go out and do the same and be seen after the event as the victim? say what!

 

I mourn their pointless deaths, all of them but I have not a shred of sympathy for the alleged perpetrator of said crime regardless of circumstance.


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In support of what Debs is saying for a moment, consider a slightly different scenario for a moment...

 

Say you are the wife in question. Your husband goes off the rails for whatever reason and tries to kill you. You survive, but realise that your children have been killed by this man....

 

Where would your thoughts be then?

 

It's a very emotive topic, this one...

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I wonder if it is now time to draw a line under all the speculation as to reasons, state of mind, legal and moral arguments etc. in this matter.

 

We are here to predominately help and offer advise to people with debt problems. We are doing perhaps a great mis-justice to this poor man and his remaining family, we cannot help him or the immediate family he chose to 'take with him' and perhaps this kind of discussion is the very reason that he chose to end their lives, who really knows, who, perhaps will ever know.

 

It is my own personal opinion that this man, however you perceive him, and his family be left in peace at this time, and his remaining family and friends left to grieve. I am sure they will all feel to a lesser or greater degree that they should have seen, should have done something and theirs too will be a great pain to bear.

 

Perhaps we should use our energies to promote awareness of Cag rather than throw around accusations of who is to blame.

 

I apologise in advance if I have offended anyone, but we are all entitled to voice our opinions on this tragic event.

 

RIP


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There is plenty of precedent for that...

 

'I fear I'll erupt in anger': Mother faces in court ex-husband who threw their son to his death from Crete hotel balcony | Mail Online

 

I've read before of a family remaining together after the event of murder of one of the children by one of the parents, twisted kind of love is that.

 

Also, if the father has survived I don't think the publics perspective would be quite the same, they'd be wanting him hung and the death penalty brought back in etc....As much as I loathe him and his alleged crime I wouldn't want him strung up (again, regardless of circumstance)


I reside in Dawlish Warren but am not a rabbit.

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It is my own personal opinion that this man, however you perceive him, and his family be left in peace at this time, and his remaining family and friends left to grieve.

 

 

I'm not aware that anyone on this thread knew the man personally, so any discussion on here wouldn't be interfering with anyone's grieving.

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As someone who's OH has tried to kill themself over financial problems and who left a suicide note (which I still have) specifically citing one of his reasons as being to enable myself and our teenage son to have a better life without him and the troubles (he believed) he had caused us, I believe that if I had been in this man's position I would not have wanted my very young children to have grown up as orphans, stigmatised for what their parent(s) had done.

 

I haven't followed the news too closely as stories like this still seem too close to home (particularly as my OH chose the New Forest close to where this family lived as the place for his suicide attempt), but I'm not aware whether any note was left implicating the Mum as well as the Dad but could it have been that both parents chose to do this as a suicide pact?

 

Our son was 17 when my OH tried to take his own life and would have been more able to accept what had happened - indeed he was my rock during the aftermath, despite being about to take his A levels, but younger children, I don't know - maybe the state the parents were in led them to believe it was best they all went together.

 

I'm not making excuses for what was an absolutely tragic event, but just trying to see it from all angles...............


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getting a bit hot calm down guys


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Guest Cartaphilus

Right, I don't want nor wish to take sides with anyone ... And I normally wouldn't post about my own pain in this direction. I was going to post on the other thread yesterday before it appears to have been merged with this one (I could be wrong as I've not been logged in since yesterday and this afternoon) but everyone who lives has a life story but there is often much more behind those lives than we will ever get to know or experience for ourselves.

 

The only person it would have hurt was me. Which it didn't, because I am still here. Though, it wasn't just debts that pushed me into doing it impulsively. It was more than a plate load of other things which had accumulated and I just decided I would just take whatever I could find that was in the house at the time, which I did. Knowing the crux of the matter wasn't entirely my own fault didn't help it was a situation I was pushed into by things beyond my control which had I to do it all again would not do but hindsight's a wonderful thing. We can only go forwards in life not rehearse, then do it again. Ended up in hospital, though I felt perfectly fine physically, however I did watch my SATS going down on the monitors in A & E dip down to what I have since been told by one of my friends who used to med a medical person, any lower I would have arrested, that would have been the end. Finish. So, now having impulsively gone to that edge metaphorically or actually doing it I won't do it again, I thought I was a strong person, I am strong willed, but when you have been hammered into the ground time and time again, things gain momentum. I didn't want to exist anymore because I felt I was a failure though throughout life I've always done things to avoid being in the very position I found myself that afternoon on that day. There was no lead up to it I just didn't want it anymore, I wanted to end myself. End of my life. I didn't care what it did to me, as long as the torment just ended. Because it was a torment. Something happened that day and I just didn't want anymore of it.

 

One thing I will never do is judge anyone. Everyone feels pain, it's whether or not we have others there who can help us cope with it, someone who will simply say to us 'everything will be okay' and give support. But sometimes there isn't any. There certainly isn't any with debt matters, and as someone mentioned in this thread there is a very awful stigma attached to debt and failure itself. This is wrong, when people are already down they do not need to be pumelled even further into depression or further misery or pain. Yet, I am going to say this but ... very often the industry thrives on making people who are already tired of everything they are already putting up with, be it lack of support, no one there who will listen, no one even caring.

 

This is my own personal experience, I am not siding with anyone because it would seem to me there is more going on here than perhaps is reported or will be. All the attention will be on the debts in the media.

 

But I feel very angry, very sad when I see good, decent human beings in our society being attacked purely because they have somehow 'failed' by everyone elses standards and enough for them to end themselves.

 

If you have support, all well and good but ... thousands go suffering without any of that, it's just not there for them. Doesn't exist.

 

There is so much in life I have seen, witnessed, the pain in myself and within others being brought to them by actions of others not always through their own fault. Very often the pain is created because there is no help on offer. Very often I have tried to be there to help ease it but you can't take it away, you can only console, comfort people and simply ... be there for them.

 

Simply put I was driven into a place where I felt I was useless, valueless, had nothing to offer society, felt totally isolated, trapped. I have plenty to offer yet that day I wanted it all to just stop.

 

Though if I've only ever learned one thing or observed over time in my life thus far is that: very often very bad things happen, attrociously bad things happen to very good people and it's thoroughly unfair. Yet, very often good things often happen to the wrong people, the bad ones in life and you can only stand back and think 'why?'. Maybe there are no answers, but sometimes, just sometimes when you have suffered, but done a lot of good things or tried to do a lot of good, there appears to be a cost attached to it. I have paid that cost, whatever that is, it won't go way, it can't. It's just made me appreciate more, have a better understanding behind certain things. Again, bad things happen to good people. I don't really need to say any of this, though as I am sure it's something most have seen whatever shape it has taken in their lives at some stage in them. I've said enough so will leave it there.

Edited by Cartaphilus

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The Mould post unapproved. Personal insults are not acceptable.

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Clearly, the poor man did not know what he was doing;

he was out of his mind!

 

I somebody goes out and kills someone in cold blood and with full mental capacity, that is murder.

 

However, in this particular case the above did not apply.

 

A great tragedy...

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This was a needless tradgedy. If the so called freinds and family would have helped them before it might never have happened :(

 

It has to be asked if the friends and family knew the depth of his problems or even if they could have helped.

 

Your statement "If the so called friends and family…" appears a little harsh.

 

They will now be carrying that guilty with them for the rest of their lives and the more that comes out over the next few weeks the more guilt they will feel.

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Cartaphilus, reading you post, you put it a lot more eloquently than I did but I know exactly what you must have felt like. It is just a pity that there are too many in society who have never been there but still feel they have the right to pass judgement on another poor soul.

Blondie40, the problem is that debt is treated with such stigma that he was probably too ashamed to get help from family/friends.

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Another useless and evil piece of clay.

 

Under what or whose authority did he claim the right to murder his children, his wife?

 

You can all blame the creditors, the banks and the bast**d evil DCA's for the way that they behave, I too loath all of them, but this man is responsible for what he has done.

 

Why did he not take just his own life? He is evil, so do not make up excuses for him you stupid people.

 

Are you going to accept that some other can be held responsible for what you have done?

 

Or will you accept responsibility for another persons actions undertaken by his choice with his concious mind, can you be blamed for something done by another in circumstances such as this?

 

Yes, something needs to be done about all of these creditors, sooner rather than later, but do not depend on the government to do it, now or ever.

 

I am not in favour of any creditor or any government for that matter, this does not mean that I am a rebel, I simply fail to understand why any ruler would concentrate so much of their efforts into their preference while all the time the life on this earth suffers and is left to rot in the waste poured out by all of the rulers on this earth.

 

What use or value does money,gold, oil, silver, diamonds, pearls or iron have when there is no life?

 

This useless piece of clay killed his children, if you have pity for him, then it is because you belong to this world and desire all that this world has to offer.

 

My hand shall hold the gate, my hand is the lock, if you clay have forgiveness for such evil men, then you shall never hold my hand for I will not extend it to you when you fall.

 

I really do not care what any of you clay think of my words.

 

The Mould

 

Mould, Jeezzaazz WTF. Is your mother Dot Cotton?

 

There is a corner within my kitchen that is dark and secluded, and you are welcome to come over and take a seat in said area and ' HAVE A WORD WITH YOURSELF' ffs M8.

 

Mr W


Regards..Mr Worried :)

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I've stated this elsewhere but tragic as it is and utter despair when faced with debts/dca's and their unscrupulous tactices can and do alter a persons perspective and in some cases (probably a lot) bring them to make irrational decisons (been there done that) and drive them to illegal actions...whatever ...but nothing should bring a man to kill his own children, particularly in the manner in which he did, stabbing them to death (allegedely) As individuals they have/had a right to live their own lives, it was in front of them etc ...suicide is one thing, often brought about by circumstance is awful, but murderiing two small children and partner and then taking your own life is to me somewhat cowardly...and on that point alone (and only that point because I can identify with the debt/pressure issue) I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

 

I sit here still and I still can't comprehend how a father can place a knife into the body of his children and extinguish their lives in front of his own eyes, that single thought seriously disturbs me.

 

I fully agree with your comments

 

Cheers

 

Mr W


Regards..Mr Worried :)

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**Quote removed**

 

Like I said....Dot Cotton

Edited by cerberusalert

Regards..Mr Worried :)

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He is a man, so what do you all expect?

 

 

What does that mean?

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