Claim received from SCM Solicitors for Lloysds, some guidance please

[maddiemay]

Dear All,

 

Thanks to the help from various people on CAG I am enjoying a bit of peace from my own creditors, still get the bit odd hate mail every 6 months or so and I know they're still there but for now its bearable, compared to how it used to be.

 

I am however looking for some guidance for my brother-in-law, although Ive learnt a fair bit from here and can do the basics of a court claim I dont know if there have been any amendments/new rules etc since my last claim, regarding defence. Ive looked at various posts and cant see anything different but would be grateful if anyone can confirm or point me in the direction of the most recent basic defence for not being able to produce a legal cca (haven't actually requested this until now, but they're not likely to have one, as the account is years old, (I hope anyway)

Account still with Lloyds/SCM. No arrangements ever entered into, Ive no idea if any default notices were ever issued.

 

The stage we are at is:

 

Claim received 17/07/10 issued from Northampton

Poc By an agreement in writing and regulated by the cca 1974, the claimants issued to the defendant a credit token blah blah. Standard I think, as Ive seen it on other posts

 

Acknowledged on-line 20/07/10

 

CPR 18 request sent to SCM 26/07/10

 

My brother-in-law has always had an A1 credit rating until 2008 when he had an accident at work and has not been able to work since (compensation claim pending) he's a manual person and has no idea how to deal with these things, guidance would be really appreciated.

 

Thank you

[Guest]

did the POC state anything about a dn and formal demand? (loyds seem to usually mention these in their poc) if so, you may want to consider a cpr request for them, as well as the agreement. (but they probably won't have copies of the dn and demand)

 

it seems that cpr18 is for info only (not docs), see here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/255329-cpr-18-cpr-31-a.html

[maddiemay]

Thanks for the reply, Poc says, claimant issued a default notice on xxxx and on xxxx claimant issued a formal demand, the claimant therefore claim the balance due under the agreement 00----.-- I have done the CPR request, should I do a seperate CCA request or is this covered in the CPR 18

Many thanks

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply, Poc says, claimant issued a default notice on xxxx and on xxxx claimant issued a formal demand, the claimant therefore claim the balance due under the agreement 00----.-- I have done the CPR request, should I do a seperate CCA request or is this covered in the CPR 18

Many thanks

 

hi

i dont think a seperate cca request would be useful at this stage, you now use cpr to get a copy of the original agreement that they intend to rely on in ct.

but re the link above, it seems that technically cpr 18 is not for documents!

Edited July 27, 2010 by Ford
typo

[citizenB]

Any requests for documents should be made using CPR31.14. Not CPR18.

[maddiemay]

Ive had a read through and thank you for pointing me in the right direction, it is the 'agreement' we want to see, for various reasons, one being that my brother-in-law had been paying for insurances since forever and only cancelled them all, the month following his accident at work, he went into his local Lloyds branch and asked for any info on all the monthly payments to the various ins companies, but they said they couldn't help, as Ive said before he's not a paperwork person and these policies would have been taken out years ago and he's no idea for what card or loan each ins co refers to, if I can see the agreement at least I'll know if the box was ticked for cover.

Another reason is that, having gone through his paperwork, there are a good few letters from debt collectors which appear to be nothing to do with him.

Getting back to the original question, I will need to make a new request under part 31.14 rather than 18, to see the agreement, quick clarification would be great please.

Thanks again

[maddiemay]

So 31.14 means I want to inspect the document and 31.15 means I want a copy of it, but which part means I need more time ?? I know the answers must be on here somewhere, but because Ive already sent off the wrong one (18) I need to get it in the post asap and ask for more time, can I ask for both in the same letter if so what exactly should I head the letter? , it really is just the agreement and default I want a copy of.

Help please!!!

[citizenB]

So 31.14 means I want to inspect the document and 31.15 means I want a copy of it, but which part means I need more time ?? I know the answers must be on here somewhere, but because Ive already sent off the wrong one (18) I need to get it in the post asap and ask for more time, can I ask for both in the same letter if so what exactly should I head the letter? , it really is just the agreement and default I want a copy of.

Help please!!!

 

 

No.. CPR 31.14 is requesting a copy of the agreement due to it being mentioned in the Particular of Claim. CPR31.15 is a request to inspect the document.

 

CPR 31.15 requires that upon receipt of a request in writing, the claimant must allow inspection of the documents and this must be done in 7 days from receipt of the request, if the claimant refuses then an application Must be made to the court for an order compelling disclosure

[maddiemay]

Oops, amended and off to posie now,

 

Much appreciated

[maddiemay]

Hi again, I could do with a bit of guidance if anyone is available, I'll briefly outline the case so far:

Court papers issued 14/07/10 by SCM Solicitors for Lloyds

AOS- Acknowledged on-line

CPR 31.14 Request made

Lloyds response- As your agreement was made before 19th May 1985 we have no obligation to supply a copy, but despite this we will try.

 

Received from Lloyds- A spanking new 10 page copy of terms and conditions,marked customer copy and below it says Credit Card Agreement regulated by CCA 1974. (£12 late fee contained within the T&C so clearly the latest set.

The case is to be heard on 7th Jan 2011, but this is the confussing part, we have to submit all documents for the hearing by 5th November. I always thought this had to be done 7 days befoe the hearing! It does say that the claimant must have the original documents in court, but surely that means they'll just produce another copy of what they have already sent us and not the original agreement. How likely is it that they'll pay the £150 by the 5th November knowing our arguement regarding the credit agreement.

Thats it for now

Thanks

[nometer]

Is the total claim made up from credit cards or loans, some times lloyds combine the 2 into one account number?

[Guest]

maddiemay

 

IMO, it maybe that loyds are maybe trying (incorrectly?) to use a 'commencement' date (19th May 1985) for their purposes? see for eg Schedule 3 of the CCA. 74

is this small claims or fast track?

is the 5th Nov. the date directed for Disclosure?

 

bump also

[cymruambyth]

A couple of points LTSB will make an application to vary order so that they don't have to produce the originals, they will argue that they have a screen shot that proves that a compliant DN was issued; they read CAG and if they think they have identified you will monitor closely and use anything you find against you.

[AndyOrch]

"The case is to be heard on 7th Jan 2011, but this is the confusing part, we have to submit all documents for the hearing by 5th November"

Hi Maddie have you submitted a Defence, received an AQ yet ? Your history stops at the CPR request. The hearing is either for CMC to discuss track or even a SJ application hearing.

Hope you have checked all your paperwork from Court and followed any orders by date.

Regards

Andy

[maddiemay]

I have followed all the court dates and all paperwork submitted on time, including defence. The case has been allocated to the small claims track, The paperwork says we need to submit all documents to be relied on at the hearing. Sorry for my lack of information, just me trying hard not to waffle on.

Documents have to be in by tomorrow, so I have to post today

[AndyOrch]

I assume that must be for the Claimant ie Case Summary.Your Allocation Notice tells you the defendant what to prepare for and with what, normally disclosure dates/Witness Statement etc so under that presumption you have nothing to submit.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[maddiemay]

They are free to identify me/him, they still wont get anything judgement or not, he's disabled for ever now, so I suggest they stop wasting any more time on me/him

Its a good learning experience for me and doesn't cost us anything!

[AndyOrch]

The only documents that you would need to rely upon would be your defence (which they have) and any requests and responses made to the claimant, ie CPR CCA DSAR.

Therefore unless the Notice of Allocation as specifically requested you prepare anything for this Hearing of January to be submitted by Nov 5th then you have very little to submit.

 

Andy

[maddiemay]

Thanks Andy, so I should submit, a) a copy of the CPR31.14 request and b) a copy of what they say is a CCA, despite the fact it is freshly concockted with nothing more than some recent t&c and a name and address printed on it.

 

For future reference, where would I find the information on the 'we are not obliged to supply because the agreement was made before 1985'

 

Thanks again

[Guest]

....'we are not obliged to supply because the agreement was made before 1985'

 

Thanks again

 

hi maddie

 

atm, i don't see how this 'excuse' is applicable! but hopefully someone can clarify?

they've only sent you current terms and conditions, so it seems then that they don't have a copy original?

[maddiemay]

Shall I send a copy of that letter in the hope that the judge knows his stuff an tells them off for fibbing!

[citizenB]

responding to an S.O.S. from ford, maddie.

 

I am not quite sure why they feel they dont have to provide a copy of a document because of it's age. Or if there is any regulation that permits them not to provide it.

 

I guess it is too late to write asking them to clarify on what basis they dont have to supply it. I am going to flag your query for the site team. See if anyone else has any ideas.

[citizenB]

Ok, from page 22 in the following OFT document..

 

 

2.22 Where the agreement was executed before 19 May 1985 and due to an accident or some other reason beyond its control, the creditor or owner does not have in its possession the executed agreement or any copy of

it, the copy to be given may comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement insofar as they are known to the creditor or owner.11

 

However, you need to read on past the statement above as it continues with information that could be of use. It specifically states further on, that if there never was a document then no copy can be produced. ..

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consultations/OFT1175con.pdf

 

HTH

 

[Guest]

good find. thanks.

 

but, is that re a cca request only. and therefore, is n/a re a cpr request, and/or the CCA requirements re enforcement?

Edited November 5, 2010 by Ford

[Guest]

ps

the oft guidance para. mentioned above refers to Regulation 9 of the Copy of Documents Regulations. Reg 9 refers to copy agreements provided under the Act.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Ford
typo