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JustPlainChicken

Cabot sent CCA what's next

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I was paying this debt to a debt collection agency for about two year just a minimal amount that was affordable. Then for some reason I wrote and asked for a statement the reply just listed my payments and gave no indication at all of a reducing balance (interest was supposed to have been suspended). This worried me so I sent of a CCA request and suspended payments there was no reply and then a letter arrived saying that the debt had been transferred to Cabot so I sent them a CCA request.

 

Recently they have provided the following agreement, understand that I have to write and tell them why I don’t think its enforceable. Frankly I think it probably is, does anyone disagree? Any comments would be appreciated.

 

AllegedEggCCA1Anomalised.jpg

 

AllegedEggCCA2Anomalised.jpg

 

AllegedEggCCA3.jpg

 

IMG]http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz277/debtsurvivor_2009/Egg%20Loan/AllegedEggCCA4.jpg[/img]

 

AllegedEggCCA5.jpg

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help anyone please!

 

Should I make them an offer? I dont want to get back in the possition where I dont know where the money is going

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I would say its enforceable.

 

I am concerned however that the previous DCA did not show you a balance diminishing as you made payment.

 

If they kept poor records they may not have passed on accurate data to the new DCA.

 

Ask them for a breakdown of how they get to the figure owed?

 

1st payment to last payment and the effect on the balance as each payment is made.

 

You could request this under a subject access request and it may be that they can not provide the detail of the balance they state is owed which would put the account in dispue.

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Thanks I had not thought of that it is sort of where I was a few years ago.

 

I think I will do that I cant see it is acceptable just to collect funds without providing a statement at least once a year.

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i wouldn't say it's enforceable from what I have read on this site a term stating the amount of credit for a fixed Sum Credit Agreement (loan as in this case) is prescribed in paragraph 2 of schedule 6 and so is protected by section 127(3) and would make it unenforceable IMO.

 

Incidentally, it is almost identical to an agreement I have with Egg as well.

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Thanks T for taking the trouble to check this through I will take another look.

 

Does anyone else agree?

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It has no RIGHT TO CANCEL on it. Should be there, even if it states that you cannot cancel - unless I missed it!

 

You do not have to upload the Terms and Conditions - they play no role in determining whether it is enforceable or not.


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Thanks I had not thought of that it is sort of where I was a few years ago.

 

I think I will do that I cant see it is acceptable just to collect funds without providing a statement at least once a year.

 

An OC is obliged to do that, if they bought it then I would assume they are as well.


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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No Early Settlement Figures

No warning about missing payments

No list of charges

Image a bit unclear but no figures on the amount of total interest charge

You blacked out the APR, it must be accurate within certain limits

As I said earlier, no RIGHT TO CANCEL

 

I would say you can drive a Cart and Horses through it!:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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I have a similar document and unless I am mistaken on page one it shows (behind the blacked out bits) the amount of PPI applicable to this account without providing any separate agreement for the PPI itself, there should be a separate agreement and T&C for the PPI

 

as well as the aforementioned missing prescribed terms


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Please note: i am not a qualified lawyer, any advice is offered in good faith and is based on my own and others experiences and a penchant for research and a desire to help others to empower themselves

 

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A loan is usually an "unrestricted-use", fix-term agreement and the PPI is a "restricted-use", fix-term agreement.

Unrestricted - you can use it for any purpose

Restricted - You can only use it for the purpose specified in the agreement (PPI for example) (specification required).

 

Therefore it is 2 completely separate credit agreements and the signed agreement must reflect that. It could be combined together in a single document but there must be clearl distinction between them.

 

I am working on a draft document to check whether an agreement is enforceable, it is for an "unrestricted-use", fix-term agreement.

 

Sections 61 to 66 of CCA 1974 gives the requirements for the agreement to be enforceable, with the main part being section 61(1)(a) (the rest are also important) which states that the agreement must be in a very prescribed form as stated by section 60(1) of the CCA 1974, which basically only states that:

"The Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents"

 

These regulations as to the form and content are contained in the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 together with a number of alteration been add over time.

 

I post my draft here, should it be of any help.

Checklist - Fixed-term unrestricted use.pdf


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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A loan is usually an "unrestricted-use", fix-term agreement and the PPI is a "restricted-use", fix-term agreement.

Unrestricted - you can use it for any purpose

Restricted - You can only use it for the purpose specified in the agreement (PPI for example) (specification required).

 

Therefore it is 2 completely separate credit agreements and the signed agreement must reflect that. It could be combined together in a single document but there must be clearl distinction between them.

 

Exactly my point, the PPI is not an integral part of the "agreement" it requires an "agreement" in its own right

 

I am working on a draft document to check whether an agreement is enforceable, it is for an "unrestricted-use", fix-term agreement.

 

Sections 61 to 66 of CCA 1974 gives the requirements for the agreement to be enforceable, with the main part being section 61(1)(a) (the rest are also important) which states that the agreement must be in a very prescribed form as stated by section 60(1) of the CCA 1974, which basically only states that:

"The Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents"

Cabots favourite sentence, they use this to imply that anything the SoS states is an agreement, must be an agreement ie what we have sent you complies with this vague and ambiguous statement, when in fact it needs to comply with CCA in full

 

These regulations as to the form and content are contained in the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 together with a number of alteration been add over time.

 

I post my draft here, should it be of any help.

 

The alleged "agreement" in post #1 is not enforceable


Hope this helps

 

 

If you feel that this site has helped you in any way please leave a donation if you can afford to do so.

 

If you feel that have been helpful please feel free to tip the scales.

 

 

The large print giveth, but the small print taketh away. ~Tom Waits, Small Change

 

 

Please note: i am not a qualified lawyer, any advice is offered in good faith and is based on my own and others experiences and a penchant for research and a desire to help others to empower themselves

 

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The alleged "agreement" in post #1 is not enforceable

 

That "agreement" must be one of the worst:mad:, or best:rolleyes: (depends on which side of the fence you are) ones availble!:-D


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Gosh what a lot for me to take on

 

Still it's clear that, it's unenforcable

 

Thanks a bunch guys your comments could save me a fortune, (that if I had any fortune to pay them)

 

I'm planning to sit tight and wait for them to try and enforce

 

Thanks again everyone

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Gosh what a lot for me to take on

 

Still it's clear that, it's unenforcable

 

Thanks a bunch guys your comments could save me a fortune, (that if I had any fortune to pay them)

 

I'm planning to sit tight and wait for them to try and enforce

 

Thanks again everyone

 

Do you still have the Default Notice? There is also the small little issue of them removing it from your credit file ...


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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Gosh what a lot for me to take on

 

Still it's clear that, it's unenforcable

 

Thanks a bunch guys your comments could save me a fortune, (that if I had any fortune to pay them)

 

I'm planning to sit tight and wait for them to try and enforce

 

Thanks again everyone

 

 

Don't be lulled into a sense of complacency or blindly follow what you are advised on here, we could easilly be completely wrong, or be misunderstanding your situation, so you need to check out for yourself what you are being advised and ensure that you fully understand what it is that makes such an agreement unenforceable.

 

There is every chance that if Cabot and their alter egos Morgan get a sniff, they will take you through the courts and attempt enforcement and if you do not understand the facts and are not able to explain yourself and shoot down their bull and bluster, then they will convince the judge black is white and they will win.

 

On a more positive note, should you lose in court, then Cabot will be liable to settle the PPI claim for providing you with an unlawful PPI product - up front and included in the loan amount.

 

They really couldn't do a better job of c@cking it all up if they tried

 

If they lose they lose and if they win they then lose over the PPI

Edited by spamheed

Hope this helps

 

 

If you feel that this site has helped you in any way please leave a donation if you can afford to do so.

 

If you feel that have been helpful please feel free to tip the scales.

 

 

The large print giveth, but the small print taketh away. ~Tom Waits, Small Change

 

 

Please note: i am not a qualified lawyer, any advice is offered in good faith and is based on my own and others experiences and a penchant for research and a desire to help others to empower themselves

 

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I don't have a default notice if it came from Egg it was when I was in crisis so paper control was not a high priority.

 

This account was with another DCA where I made an arrangement and paid for about 2.5 years before I asked them for a statement.

 

Could I realy get it removed from my credit file I though I would have to wait years until it was statute barred, all of this is very new to me.

 

thank for your help

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Don't be lulled into a sense of complacency or blindly follow what you are advised on here, we could easilly be completely wrong, or be misunderstanding your situation, so you need to check out for yourself what you are being advised and ensure that you fully understand what it is that makes such an agreement unenforceable.

 

There is every chance that if Cabot and their alter egos Morgan get a sniff, they will take you through the courts and attempt enforcement and if you do not understand the facts and are not able to explain yourself and shoot down their bull and bluster, then they will convince the judge black is white and they will win.

 

 

Thanks I understand the risk I will keep researching here to get prepared.

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I don't have a default notice if it came from Egg it was when I was in crisis so paper control was not a high priority.

 

This account was with another DCA where I made an arrangement and paid for about 2.5 years before I asked them for a statement.

 

Could I realy get it removed from my credit file I though I would have to wait years until it was statute barred, all of this is very new to me.

 

thank for your help

 

SH is completely right, should it come to court action or something similar, then you (or a representative) will have to defend you and you will need to know exactly why it is un-enforceable. The pdf I uploaded contains a lot of the information needed.

 

The main idea is that certain terms, called the Prescribed Terms, MUST be provided to you and it must be CLEAR, therefore there are precise wording, headings etc., called the "Prescribed Form", so that you know EXACTLY what is going on. They cannot hide these facts in the "small print". Things like:

Should they charge you £75 for a payment that is 10 sec late, then they have to SPELL it out in these prescribed terms. Also, how would you know whether you can cancel or not, that you are allowed early settlement, etc.? Therefore it needs to be clear, so that you are not at a disadvantage. Their t&c's are the remainder where they can put all the rest of the things they want to add.

 

To remove a Default from your credit file is possible, must not quick and certainly NOT easy. These reports fall under the Data Protection Act which states that they must be ACCURATE, up to date, etc., something the CRA's completely ignore. If it isn't accurate, then they have to remove it but they need LOTS of encouragement! Off course, they can be sued for breaches.

 

Invalid DN's make the Credit Reports inaccurate and combined with a un-enforceable agreement makes it possible to remove, but again, it is not easy.

 

Many of us didn't keep things like DN's, etc. In the future, always keep it together with the envelope to establish when you receive it (hopefully it will never be necessary). Unfortunately banks and CC companies do not keep the DN's they send out and they are not obliged to. What they are obliged to do, however, is to keep a record that one has been send out, could be a simple entry on a computer record. You could send a SAR to Egg to see whether that is the case but it cost £10.00. There are plenty of templates and info on the site how to do it.

 

If I can help with some info, feel free to ask.


“We believe Capital One Law takes privilege over UK Law” – Sven Lagerberg – Capital One.

-----------------

By supplying ALL the documents WILL NOT answer your questions but by supplying a SELECTIVE few will. – Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Separate requests with a fee should be made to ALL relevant Data Controllers in an organisation. - Jayne Sheenan – HSBC

------------------

Our t&c's overrides ICO guidelines when reporting to CRA's - Karon A Bullock - Capital One

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