Revenue Protection Support Services - Train fine (lying officer)

[cosmic88]

I recently received a penalty fare notice, which I am refusing to pay (withholding payment).

 

Incident:

I boarded a train with intention to pay guard as train pulled up as I arrived. As only one stop to change I did not find the guard. I proceeded to station ticket desk at change station to get ticket but RPSS officer stopped me (I could have just crossed the platform without a ticket for my connecting train which was standing ready to depart in 5 minutes). The officer didn't care about the facts and insinuated that I was lying and had traveled further than one stop. I followed the letter of the law and verbally provided my correct details, which the officer recorded on his papers. While recording my details he mistakenly wrote my house number as 16 where as I live at 15. I signed his paper on the line where he pointed. I was in a rush so pushed him to hurry up and so I was allowed to purchase my ticket (finally!!) While purchasing I queried how I can appeal and was informed I would receive a letter in the mail. I rushed off and caught the train...

 

The first correspondence I received was a warning letter for unpaid monies from the RPSS. This letter was handed to me by my neighbor who had just returned from holiday. I immediately wrote a letter to the appeals address but it arrived on the 23rd day after the penalty fare was issued. Until I had that letter I was provided with no information on how to appeal and now they will not accept an appeal. I wrote again requesting a copy of the paper I signed.

 

To top it all the officer has not only got my address wrong he's written on the top of the notice that he issued me a copy and he found it on the floor! He never gave me a copy! I am absolutely seething about this farce! I would rather go to jail than pay hard earned money to these people. I absolutely refuse to pay.

 

What is the worse that can happen? Can I pursue the mistake that the officer made? Can I take action to complaint against this Southeastern Rail employee? Should I pay the money then take them to small claims court. I'd pay £500 just to waste their time as much as they have succeeded in wasting mine. *rant over* Sorry just so angry!!

[dx100uk]

this thread need moving to the transport section where there are loads of people able to help

 

hit the red warning triangle to the right under your name

 

and ask for it to be moved

 

dx

[cosmic88]

Done. Thanks.

[maroondevo52]

Thread moved

[dx100uk]

TBH: put your pride away for 30sec and think of your future and your family

 

a criminal record would be stupid in this instance

 

deal with that later.

 

you need to write to them and basically grovel & offer to pay all fines etc before it gets too silly and in court.

 

have a read of a few threads here

 

you'll get the idea

 

then when thats dusted , p'haps look at recourse .

 

dx

[Wriggler7]

Let us consider the reported facts here:

 

You got on a train without a ticket, you did not pay the conductor, you were spoken to by some sort of Inspector as you approached the ticket office at your intended interchange station.

 

Without knowing what station you boarded at, it is highly probable that at the very least you are guilty of an offence contrary to Byelaw 18 of the National Rail Byelaws.

 

The opportunity to pay a penalty fare seems like a better bet than chancing your arm in Court.

 

For any better 'advice' you would need to tell us what station you actually boarded at.

[Stigy]

If there were no facilities to buy a rail ticket at your origin station, then you played everything by the book and should not have received a Penalty Fare. The guidelines in this instance are very clear, in that you should purchase one at your earliest oportunity. Now that was probably the train Guard if there was one on your train, however, it probably wasn't feasable for the sake of one stop, so your interchange station was probably acceptable.

 

Ignore that for a second though, because you openly admit to seeing a train in the station as you arrived, so you jumped on it. Therefore, it was your obligation to purchase the ticket before you board the train if there are facilities available at the time (these can be checked). The staff involved could have excersized a little discretion, as you did approach them as opposed them to you, and before reaching your final destination. Having said that, they have done nothing wrong in issuing the notice to you, as by your own admisssion, you saw a train and jumped on without buying a ticket first.

 

You said that the staff member lied and stated that you threw the notice on the floor? Something I'm finding hard to fathom here is that you obviously refute that claim, so surely just quoting the notice number to the RPSS that is on the notice, should settle this one? If the notice number is on the letter they sent, surely sending them a photocopy will prove you in the right? That being the case, that forms your complaint. I just would have thought that if indeed you did throw the notice on the floor, the staff concerned would have picked it up and submit it with their copy of the form?

 

Finally, you said that you did appeal, but that they received it on day 23? You state that you 'immediately' wrote to this address, yet it would appear this was after first having received a letter warning of unpaid monies by RPSS? For starters you won't receive a warning letter until at least the 21-days you have to pay has lapsed, which would have blown any appeal out of the water anyway. Had you not have had the notice of course, you wouldn't know where to send you appeal to.

 

If I'm missing something here, please advise me, I have been known to misread things!

[cosmic88]

I got on at High Brooms station. The ticket office was closed and I could not see a ticket machine. It was also the first(and last) time I've used High brooms station. Several other passengers that arrived at the same time as myself boarded the train to Tonbridge having not bought tickets as they attempted to enter the locked office. I find it unreasonable to not board the train and wait for 40 minutes looking for a ticket machine that may not be there when I usually get my ticket off a conductor. The conductor has never ever warned me that I should buy a ticket before boarding the train, so as I saw it it was acceptable to board the train. While on the train I walked along 3 carriages looking for the conductor(no opportunity) before I reached Tonbridge.

 

To clarify, the officer incorrectly wrote down my address. I provided the correct details verbally. He obscured the address with his hand as he pointed to where I had to sign. His mistake meant the letter(I was told I would receive after asking how to appeal) went to my next door neighbor who was on holiday. I received the letter (my first correspondence) on day 21. The penalty fare notice was not handed to me and the officer has covered his back by writing "issued and found on floor" at the top of the notice. This officer made two mistakes. I can prove that he wrote my address incorrectly. I can prove I did not have possession of the penalty fare notice. The officer is human and error can happen but the fact he has lied is absolutely despicable. I can understand he probably has targets to reach but relying on the untouchable nature of his position is unfair. I never had a chance to make my appeal in time without knowing what to do, I was waiting on the letter I was lead to understand that I would receive in the post.

 

So far as I am aware.. I have broken no law. The only illegal activity would have been to provide incorrect details to identify myself. This is totally unfair/bizarre situation.

 

The fact that I was caught trying to reach the ticket office when I could have continued my journey proves that in my view I was making a reasonable attempt to pay. Making a reasonable attempt to pay is the the only item in the law that I can find to support my case and I can demonstrate that I made the attempt in court. Judges aren't stupid and the law is very hazy on this point as there is no definition of "reasonable attempt".

 

Due to their mistakes I missed the opportunity to appeal. I can prove this was their fault bar the penalty notice being issued. Due to missing the deadline they dismiss any appeals I make out of hand.

 

I have informed the RPSS that I am withholding all payments until I am given an opportunity to appeal. I guess I write to Southeastern Rail and lodge a complaint. Would you agree that would be the next best course of action given that I am not paying a single penny until I am treated fairly.

 

I have no problem going to court. The law is meant to protect civilians from criminals. I know, I know I'm very stubborn. I have a bee in my bonnet from childhood about being accused of things that were not my fault. I can't control how angry I get in these situations but fortunately the RPSS officer is not here right now.

 

Sorry if I have not cleared up questions you've asked. I'm heavily dyslexic, so ask me in bullet points and I'll answer directly.

[Old-CodJA]

I got on at High Brooms station. The ticket office was closed and I could not see a ticket machine. It was also the first(and last) time I've used High brooms station. Several other passengers that arrived at the same time as myself boarded the train to Tonbridge having not bought tickets as they attempted to enter the locked office. I find it unreasonable to not board the train and wait for 40 minutes looking for a ticket machine that may not be there when I usually get my ticket off a conductor. The conductor has never ever warned me that I should buy a ticket before boarding the train, so as I saw it it was acceptable to board the train. While on the train I walked along 3 carriages looking for the conductor(no opportunity) before I reached Tonbridge.

 

To clarify, the officer incorrectly wrote down my address. I provided the correct details verbally. He obscured the address with his hand as he pointed to where I had to sign. His mistake meant the letter(I was told I would receive after asking how to appeal) went to my next door neighbor who was on holiday. I received the letter (my first correspondence) on day 21. The penalty fare notice was not handed to me and the officer has covered his back by writing "issued and found on floor" at the top of the notice. This officer made two mistakes. I can prove that he wrote my address incorrectly. I can prove I did not have possession of the penalty fare notice. The officer is human and error can happen but the fact he has lied is absolutely despicable. I can understand he probably has targets to reach but relying on the untouchable nature of his position is unfair. I never had a chance to make my appeal in time without knowing what to do, I was waiting on the letter I was lead to understand that I would receive in the post.

 

So far as I am aware.. I have broken no law. The only illegal activity would have been to provide incorrect details to identify myself. This is totally unfair/bizarre situation.

 

The fact that I was caught trying to reach the ticket office when I could have continued my journey proves that in my view I was making a reasonable attempt to pay. Making a reasonable attempt to pay is the the only item in the law that I can find to support my case and I can demonstrate that I made the attempt in court. Judges aren't stupid and the law is very hazy on this point as there is no definition of "reasonable attempt".

 

Due to their mistakes I missed the opportunity to appeal. I can prove this was their fault bar the penalty notice being issued. Due to missing the deadline they dismiss any appeals I make out of hand.

 

I have informed the RPSS that I am withholding all payments until I am given an opportunity to appeal. I guess I write to Southeastern Rail and lodge a complaint. Would you agree that would be the next best course of action given that I am not paying a single penny until I am treated fairly.

 

I have no problem going to court. The law is meant to protect civilians from criminals. I know, I know I'm very stubborn. I have a bee in my bonnet from childhood about being accused of things that were not my fault. I can't control how angry I get in these situations but fortunately the RPSS officer is not here right now.

 

Sorry if I have not cleared up questions you've asked. I'm heavily dyslexic, so ask me in bullet points and I'll answer directly.

 

As someone else said, I think the first thing you need to do is to step back a little and think of the consequences. I am sorry if you think my responses are harsh, but as someone whe spends several days a week putting such cases before the Courts, I would ask you to look long and hard at your chosen path.

 

1. The booking office at High Brooms may well have been closed as you say, but the self-service ticket machine is immediately adjacent to the booking office entrance as you come into the station and onto platform 1. It is worth noting that these machines are computer monitored for availability and CCTV covers all stations and many trains too.

 

2. Wherever there is a Penalty Fare scheme in operation, there are signs posted advising the traveller that they must be in possession of a valid ticket or may face a penalty fare or prosecution. I would check the station at High Brooms and see if they are there.

 

3. Ignorance of a rule is not a defence.

 

4. As a point of clarification, it isn't an RPSS officer that reported you. RPSS are simply the admin function for the TOC and it will almost certainly have been a Southeastern RPI who made out the PFN

 

5. The requirement to hold a valid ticket in these circumstances is strict liability in accordance with National Railway Byelaws. If you genuinely couldn't get one (eg: the machine was also out of order) no offence is committed until the point at which any traveller refuses to pay the single fare due. If facilities are available, you are required to use them. Rail staff are not forced to issue a Penalty Notice and if an inspector believes that a fare was likely to remain unpaid, could report for prosecution.

 

6. The rules regarding the procedure relating to penalty fares, the period for appeal and the way in which it must be made are determined by the Railways Act. If a notice remains unpaid and not successfully appealed at the end of the time allowed, the TOC can cancel the notice and proceed to prosecution in respect of the unpaid fare.

 

7. Your accusations that the inspector 'obscured address details' and 'lied' are serious matters that can be tested by a Court and I am not sure how you intend to prove these statements, but if you can show evidence to support your claim, then the TOC case would be likely to fail. Having signed the notice, it is deemed that you were aware of the conditions and that you have checked the detail as correct. It may be difficult, but you will need to prove that is not the case. I am not saying that these are false accusations, what I am saying is that you will need to convince a Magistrate that the 'evidence of the signed notice' is false if you intend to pursue you current course of action. Hearsay or opinion is not likely to be accepted as proof.

 

8. If you signed a notice confirming that your address is number X on a given street, a Court is likely to take the view that neither the TOC nor their agents (RPSS) can be blamed for sending a letter to that number.

 

9. It is important to remember that NO letter is sent by RPSS until the 21 day appeal period has been exceeded. The Notice, made out at the time is the document advising the appeal period. The letter sent by RPSS gives a further 21 days to pay, the appeal period has already passed.

 

10. If the ticket machine was working and you boarded the train without a ticket or permission from an authorised person (member of staff) and you fail to pay or successfully appeal a Penalty Notice in due time, it is likely that you would be charged with the strict liability offence of 'fail to show a valid ticket on demand' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005). On conviction this carries a maximum penalty of a fine of up to £1000.

 

If you have indisputable evidence that the inspector acted maliciously, by all means allow this to go to Court and win the day, or make a complaint, showing that evidence to the TOC, and seek an apology & compensation.

 

If you are just relying on your interpretation of the rules and just boarded without a ticket as a matter of course, I would strongly suggest that you take a more concilliatory approach and see if the TOC will allow an alternative closure.

 

.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[dx100uk]

eve cod

 

dx

[timbo58]

Agree with OC 100%, unless you can prove the allegations against the inspector it's annoying but irrelevant for defence purposes.

FWIW RPSS are basically a debt collection agency: they will check and verify details for the TOCs inspectors/Guards and then voraciously chase the debt owed as they get the vast majority of it as their 'fee'.

Be aware they add another £15(?) every 14(?) days just as admin for late fees, years ago I issued a UPFN (unpaid notice that could have been paid at any time in 14 days for the monies missed) for 75p.

The passenger refused to pay it 'on principle' (the principle he'd left his YP at home and I'd actually accepted his word for it! and not cancelled the whole ticket but allowed him to pay the excess he claimed to have no funds for!) he was issued a CCJ eventually for the 75p + costs which had spiralled to well over £200.

Some 'principles' are better off left as exactly that.

[cosmic88]

Thanks for spelling out for me Old Cod. I guess I will pay. A nice 4 foot long cheque should do it. I'm just off down the bank to confirm what is legal. I'll do recorded delivery take photos of evidence. It'll cost them money to cash it. Ah the spite is flowing freely! (may just do a normal method of payment, but alleviating anger with humour)

 

Heaven help me if I meet the officer involved again. I'll shake his hand for being such a stand up bloke!

 

Thanks everyone here for your time!

[SRPO]

..Heaven help me if I meet the officer involved again. I'll shake his hand for being such a stand up bloke!..

 

Really bad idea, he knows your details and can easily make your life very difficult simply by writing a statement & submitting it to the prosecutions dept.

[cosmic88]

It's not illegal to heap sarcasm on a job well done. I'd film it if I did bump into him, just to be safe.

 

The thing I don't get about this whole process is that if I had no intention to pay it would be theft and prosecuted under the Theft Act 1968.

 

"If a criminal offence is suspected such as travelling with a view to avoiding payment of the fare or using a ticket knowing it to be invalid with a view to defrauding the train operator, then action is taken not under the Penalty Fares scheme but under the Theft Act 1968" -Stan Brown, Solicitors Regulation Authority

 

By issuing a penalty fare notice they are admitting that you intended to pay the fare. The stumbling block for the TOCs is that they have to prove I had no intention to pay the fare in the first place, if they decide to prosecute.

 

The RPSS(IPFAS whatever) is actually engaged in criminal activity (blackmail under the Section 21 of the Theft Act 1968) because they threaten prosecution over what is a disputed civil debt. These threatening letters are making my blood boil and I'm not feeling terribly well from this experience.

 

Am I talking absolute garbage here? Got out my card to pay but can't do it....

[SRPO]

It's not illegal to heap sarcasm on a job well done. I'd film it if I did bump into him, just to be safe.

 

The thing I don't get about this whole process is that if I had no intention to pay it would be theft and prosecuted under the Theft Act 1968.

 

"If a criminal offence is suspected such as travelling with a view to avoiding payment of the fare or using a ticket knowing it to be invalid with a view to defrauding the train operator, then action is taken not under the Penalty Fares scheme but under the Theft Act 1968" -Stan Brown, Solicitors Regulation Authority

 

By issuing a penalty fare notice they are admitting that you intended to pay the fare. The stumbling block for the TOCs is that they have to prove I had no intention to pay the fare in the first place, if they decide to prosecute.

 

The RPSS(IPFAS whatever) is actually engaged in criminal activity (blackmail under the Section 21 of the Theft Act 1968) because they threaten prosecution over what is a disputed civil debt. These threatening letters are making my blood boil and I'm not feeling terribly well from this experience.

 

Am I talking absolute garbage here? Got out my card to pay but can't do it....

 

Yep, you are talking garbage, you cannot film on railway property without written permission, as you say he is a liar he will obviously make something up about you. Intentional fare evasion is prosecuted under the Regulation Of Railways Act not the Theft Act, they dont have to prove an intent to permanently to avoid the fare just the obligation to avoid paying before travelling.

Penalty Fares can be cancelled thru non payment & prosecuted through criminal courts.

Its a simple fact that all the railway companies ask people to do is pay before travelling, there are lots of methods to do this, if you fail to do so expect to pay a penalty.

[Wriggler7]

Whilst there are instances where 'Theft Act' or various 'forgeries' laws may be used, most railways will stick to Regulation of Railways Act or National Rail Byelaws.

 

They have a vast depth of experience with them, and the Byelaws tend to be 'strict liability', which is to say that there just is not a clever defence.

 

"Did you show a valid ticket?", "No." 'nuf said.

 

The issue of intent is not as hard to prove as some people choose to think. Whilst it is for the prosecution to prove, they only have to prove an intent to avoid the fare at the time it was due. Old Codja will probably give you some case law, Bremme & Dubery, Hale & Pace or whatever, but it all tends to add up to if you didn't have a valid ticket, there is probably a case to answer.

 

Whether the Inspector is a jumped up paragon of virtue or not is pretty irrellevant to the issue.

 

The Courts are very good at 'sticking to the point', and sometimes will remind people of that.

[patrickq1]

I recently received a penalty fare notice, which I am refusing to pay (withholding payment).

 

Incident:

I boarded a train with intention to pay guard as train pulled up as I arrived. As only one stop to change I did not find the guard. I proceeded to station ticket desk at change station to get ticket but RPSS officer stopped me (I could have just crossed the platform without a ticket for my connecting train which was standing ready to depart in 5 minutes). The officer didn't care about the facts and insinuated that I was lying and had traveled further than one stop. I followed the letter of the law and verbally provided my correct details, which the officer recorded on his papers. While recording my details he mistakenly wrote my house number as 16 where as I live at 15. I signed his paper on the line where he pointed. I was in a rush so pushed him to hurry up and so I was allowed to purchase my ticket (finally!!) While purchasing I queried how I can appeal and was informed I would receive a letter in the mail. I rushed off and caught the train...

 

The first correspondence I received was a warning letter for unpaid monies from the RPSS. This letter was handed to me by my neighbor who had just returned from holiday. I immediately wrote a letter to the appeals address but it arrived on the 23rd day after the penalty fare was issued. Until I had that letter I was provided with no information on how to appeal and now they will not accept an appeal. I wrote again requesting a copy of the paper I signed.

 

To top it all the officer has not only got my address wrong he's written on the top of the notice that he issued me a copy and he found it on the floor! He never gave me a copy! I am absolutely seething about this farce! I would rather go to jail than pay hard earned money to these people. I absolutely refuse to pay.

 

What is the worse that can happen? Can I pursue the mistake that the officer made? Can I take action to complaint against this Southeastern Rail employee? Should I pay the money then take them to small claims court. I'd pay £500 just to waste their time as much as they have succeeded in wasting mine. *rant over* Sorry just so angry!!

 

what ive just read today,

In no way am I condoning fare dodgers. But occasionally, commuters are forced to travel without a ticket thanks to broken ticket machines, and are then whacked with a fine just to top off their bad luck.

However, with all things to do with rail ticket fines, section 8 of the Penalty Fares Rules might just be your friend. According to the rules, a penalty fare cannot be charged if there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket.

In fact, the regulations explicitly state how long you can queue for a ticket before it becomes unreasonable. Section 4.12 states: "We expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times."

In other words, if you are prevented from buying a ticket because of a long queue, you should be able to avoid having to pay a fine. Take a picture of the queue on your phone if you can.

And if you are hit with a fine for another reason, this marvelous piece of legislation makes clear that rather than pay the fine, you should only be charged "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied".

Basically, the maximum you should ever have to pay is the cost of a single ticket for the journey.

If you take the train on a regular basis, I reckon you should definitely be very well acquainted with these rules and what they mean for you, whatever your ticketing mishap. Check out the rules on the Department for Transport's website.

[Old-CodJA]

It's not illegal to heap sarcasm on a job well done. I'd film it if I did bump into him, just to be safe.

 

The thing I don't get about this whole process is that if I had no intention to pay it would be theft and prosecuted under the Theft Act 1968.

 

"If a criminal offence is suspected such as travelling with a view to avoiding payment of the fare or using a ticket knowing it to be invalid with a view to defrauding the train operator, then action is taken not under the Penalty Fares scheme but under the Theft Act 1968" -Stan Brown, Solicitors Regulation Authority

 

By issuing a penalty fare notice they are admitting that you intended to pay the fare. The stumbling block for the TOCs is that they have to prove I had no intention to pay the fare in the first place, if they decide to prosecute.

 

The RPSS(IPFAS whatever) is actually engaged in criminal activity (blackmail under the Section 21 of the Theft Act 1968) because they threaten prosecution over what is a disputed civil debt. These threatening letters are making my blood boil and I'm not feeling terribly well from this experience.

 

Am I talking absolute garbage here? Got out my card to pay but can't do it....

 

I'm afraid that it seems Stan Brown is wrong in making an assumption that every case is dealt with in that way..

 

The offence of 'intent to avoid a fare' is not charged under the Theft Act. That legislation is only normally used in very serious cases, where very large sums of money are involved and such cases are relatively rare.

 

Intent to avoid a rail fare is an offence that is contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889). This is a summary only matter and is dealt with by Summonses issued for listing in the Magistrates Courts, not the Crown Court, which will usually hear allegations under the Theft Act.

 

Around 20,000 cases of summary offences contrary to RRA (1889) are listed in Magistrates Courts across the country every year.

 

The most common legal precedent referred to is the case of Corbyn & Saunders (1977) which, in effect makes clear that, if a traveller boards a train knowing that a fare is due, but fails to pay that fare before boarding the train where facilities are available to get a ticket and only intending to pay the fare if asked to do so, he may be considered to be intending to avoid that fare unless asked to pay.

 

So far as the Byelaws are concerned it is even easier for the TOCs to get a conviction. The TOC does not have to prove that you didn't intend to pay, but merely that you did not show a ticket when asked.

 

If facilities are available to pay the fare and get a ticket, there is a strict liability requirement for every intending traveller to do so. If the traveller does not and a member of staff then asks them to show a ticket, the traveller may be charged with 'fail to show a ticket on demand' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1.

 

In either case, the penalty for conviction is a level 3 fine (max £1000) and in the case of 'intent to avoid', there is an ultimate sanction (only in very serious or repetitive cases) of the possibility of imprisonment.

 

No, by issuing a Penalty Fare Notice the company is not admitting that you intended to pay the fare at all.

 

Where a Penalty Fares regime is in place, this is a method of dealing with minor cases by offering an administrative or civil remedy as an alternative to making out a report for prosecution. It should never be used by staff as an alternative to reporting serious fraud, but the Courts welcome the reduction in long lists of cases that this process affords.

 

If the penalty remains unpaid and not successfully appealed, it can still result in prosecution and in my experience the Courts often recognise that these are strict liability matters where the traveller has been given a way out, but has rejected that opportunity to make their point 'out of principle'.

 

Where such an offence is alleged, that very often turns out to be a pretty expensive, but quickly revised principle.

 

No, the collection agencies are not engaged in 'blackmail' as you allege, this procedure has been in place since 1984 (the original Penalty Fares Act ) and I'm sure that if your accusation had any basis in fact, the process would have been challenged and overturned during the intervening 26 years, don't you?

 

.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[cosmic88]

Thanks again.

 

They say there was a ticket machine at High Brooms but I didn't see one for the 3 minutes I was at the station. Given the train I boarded stood at the play form for just over a minute. It just not worth travelling there to check and take photos.

 

How is it reasonable to wait 40 minutes just in case I can find a ticket machine? The only ticket machine I saw was in the locked office, they should man the office during operating hours!! No one else bought tickets. Just my dumb luck for being honest and going up the stairs at Tonbridge to pay at the earliest opportunity.

 

In theory I would be financially better off if I never buy tickets and just pay penalty fares. It is totally retarded. I also believe there was an element of routine prejudice exercised against me at the time as I was wearing tracksuit bottoms and a T-shirt(yeah some people wear it for playing sport these days!).

 

I think I'll lodge a complaint to the TOC about the officer. Should I pay the fine now or wait for response?

[cosmic88]

Ah Cod you're dose of reality makes me sad

[Old-CodJA]

Lol

 

This really is genuinely intended to help you understand the position

 

Don't bother to go and take photographs, have a look at this link

 

High Brooms Station Plan

 

This shows just how the layout is at High Brooms and what is there

 

Run your cursor over the image and you'll see photographs of the station appear, including one showing the ticket machine being used outside at the access to the station.

 

It's a matter for you, but I'd certainly suggest that you pay the PF and learn from the experience.

 

.

[Wriggler7]

Did I miss something? You waited three minutes. Not a long time. Not worth going there to check the machine? I thought you lived close to the station.

 

One wonders if your home address is closer to another station, that is not just one stop from Tonbridge, but you would be well advised not to give 'personal' information on open sites.

 

Old Codja's realism may save you making yourself look silly. Corbyn & Saunders is the case that slipped my addled brain, Mr Corbyn thought he had all the answers. The appeal Courts thought differently, and gave us all the phrase 'there is no need to import (into Sec5,3,a) the adverb 'permanently', neatly telling anyone versed in section 1 Theft Act 1968 to read the most appropriate piece of law and not one which best suits their argument.

 

If you want to take some thoughts on 'theft act' you may wish to apply the Ghosh test to your own situation.

[cosmic88]

OMG I hate back packers! There was a group of people standing in front of the ticket machine I feel so gutted!!!

 

Wrig, I don't live in the area. I was dropped off to take train as I thought it would be cheaper!

 

TODO:

 

I've got a huge bit of card to write a cheque to the bast@rds (totally worth the postage). They can shove it up their ass if they want one from my cheque book(which I cannot seem to find at the moment). I'll offer to replace it with a bigger one on balser wood but that will be subject to a £57 admin fee. I'll send it recorded delivery, take photos of envelope contents, and have two people witness me send it. That should add some cost to their processing of the legally acceptable payment. I will get some amusement out of this!

 

Thanks COD. You are a star!

[patrickq1]

well done for the card cosmic, i done some on an 18 x 12 inch ceramic tiles fired them in kiln and also did two on fag packets,why because the bank would nt give me a cheque book at the time lol....

patrickq1

and this isnt bull**** they had to accept even though they tried to be akward at the time i went into the bank with the customer

[Old-CodJA]

It's all good reading and I understand your feelings, but it's worth remembering this:

 

Legal tender is variously defined in different jurisdictions.

 

Formally, it is anything which when offered in payment extinguishes the debt. Thus, personal cheques, credit cards, debit cards and similar non-cash methods of payment are not usually determined legal tender.

 

The law does not relieve the debt until payment is accepted. Coins and notes are usually defined as legal tender everywhere. Some jurisdictions may forbid or restrict payment made other than by legal tender.

 

The company can determine what it will take as acceptable payment, not the payer.

 

It's probably just as easy to pay it and move on.