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Broken Double Yellows


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Hi,

I went to a retail park today and the car park was so full that drivers parked on the grass verges off the road and so did I. When I got back to the car I'd received a parking ticket for "parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours". The only signs visible were the double yellow lines that were broken up all along the street.

 

Does anyone know if this relates to the double yellow lines and if so - if I park off the road do the double yellows apply? I thought double yellows applied to the road side and not the other side. There was no footpath in this area either. I have also heard that appeals have been won if the double yellows are not maintained and consist of "unbroken solid lines finished with a bar"?

 

I plan to appeal but want to be sure of the facts.

 

Thanks in advance

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Doesn't this case set a precedent for all subsequent adjudications:

 

Davies v Heatley [1971] R.T.R 145

 

Because by s.64(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind.

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Doesn't this case set a precedent for all subsequent adjudications:

 

Davies v Heatley [1971] R.T.R 145

 

Because by s.64(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind.

 

It is not an 'offence' that has been commited, its a parking contravention.

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I have been through all this myself recently stating that the yellows in question were not constructed withing those regs.

 

They sent it to the parking adjudicator who went through some type of court process. they provided all the evidence..piccies ...ticket etc.

 

Despite the lines being all wrong the court found in their favour and i now have to pay the ticket plus costs.

 

dont waste your timequoting tra road marking regulations they will ignore them and if the court can rule in their favour then whats the point..

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It is not an 'offence' that has been commited, its a parking contravention.

 

What's the difference?

 

The council does not adhere to the regulations but I must?

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TWO DOGS....I agree entirely.

 

In my experience the Council appear to be able to completely ignore the law yet I have to comply with whatever they say.

 

Regardless of wheter it is indeed law or just some made up ******* by an idiot.

 

designed ofcourse to squeeze even more money out of the motorist.

Edited by Mr lex
Language Please !!
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What's the difference?

 

The council does not adhere to the regulations but I must?

 

The difference is the case you quoted is criminal law, PCNs are civil law. It is physically impossible to ensure yellow lines are 100% intact 24/7 throughout their life. It would be ridiculous to suggest that if a mile long stretch of yellow line had a 2 metre long break because workmen were digging a hole to fix a gas leak that the entire street would be free parking, I very much doubt the argument would even stand up at magistrates court let alone adjudication. Where would you draw the line for non compliance, a 1mm crack in the line or a 50m gap? Adjudication will decide if any defect in the line was responsible for you being unaware it was a restricted street.

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The difference is the case you quoted is criminal law, PCNs are civil law. It is physically impossible to ensure yellow lines are 100% intact 24/7 throughout their life. It would be ridiculous to suggest that if a mile long stretch of yellow line had a 2 metre long break because workmen were digging a hole to fix a gas leak that the entire street would be free parking, I very much doubt the argument would even stand up at magistrates court let alone adjudication. Where would you draw the line for non compliance, a 1mm crack in the line or a 50m gap? Adjudication will decide if any defect in the line was responsible for you being unaware it was a restricted street.

 

The regulations seem quite clear to me The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England & Wales) Regulations 1996. Regulation 18(1) provides:

Where an order relating to a road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure:

( a ) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

( b ) the maintenance of such signs for as long as the order remains in force.”

 

The excuse you are stating would not be allowed by a member of the public so why should the council use it?

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The regulations seem quite clear to me The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England & Wales) Regulations 1996. Regulation 18(1) provides:

Where an order relating to a road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure:

( a ) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

( b ) the maintenance of such signs for as long as the order remains in force.”

 

The excuse you are stating would not be allowed by a member of the public so why should the council use it?

 

I don't think maintenance would include checking every sign and line in the Borough several times a day. If you have a company vehicle the company has a duty to maintain that vehicle, that does not mean a support crew following you to carry out a pit stop every time you park it means regular checks and fixing of faults, the same applies to traffic signage.

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I don't think maintenance would include checking every sign and line in the Borough several times a day. If you have a company vehicle the company has a duty to maintain that vehicle, that does not mean a support crew following you to carry out a pit stop every time you park it means regular checks and fixing of faults, the same applies to traffic signage.

 

OK but what if I were to say to a speeding fine "I was only doing 33 in a 30 zone officer as I can't be expected to watch the speedo and the road all the time".

 

Rules is rules as the council and courts are fond of stating the lines had large breaks in them and have clearly not been maintained for years, they also have a bar painted along the length of them, (presumably where they decided to lengthen the restricted zone at some point). The regulations are quite clear so there should be no argument. If they wish to enforce the rules they need to maintain the signs, and that does not need a daily check does it?

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OK but what if I were to say to a speeding fine "I was only doing 33 in a 30 zone officer as I can't be expected to watch the speedo and the road all the time".

 

All pretty irrelevant, you can post all manner of scenarios, but the fact remains the contravention is "parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours". I'd concentrate on that, red herrings don't help

 

Rules is rules as the council and courts are fond of stating the lines had large breaks in them and have clearly not been maintained for years, they also have a bar painted along the length of them, (presumably where they decided to lengthen the restricted zone at some point). The regulations are quite clear so there should be no argument. If they wish to enforce the rules they need to maintain the signs, and that does not need a daily check does it?

 

Any pictures or Google Street location would be useful.

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TWO DOGS...once again I agree entirely with you.....

 

Just to put it in perspective the lines in my case were of entirely the wrong construction, size, shape, distance from kerb, bends, additional lineage, no stop marks...where do we stop.

 

I have consulted several Civil engineers and been told that they are 'forbidden' from marking any road with markings other than what is in the traffic manual.

 

I have also been informed that it was done as a money saving measure by my local council...who obviously think that they can completely ignore the law.

 

Incidentally at the time of my contravention...I wasnt on the public highway..wasnt blocking any one or any road and was indeed prevented from entering my secure parking..which i pay for by a council van...whom by strange coincidence NEVER get parking tickets for being in the same place as me and i mean every single day without fail.

 

I WAS THERE FOR 4 MINUTES

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Just to be quite certain. Is this a council ticket?

 

Your post is not absolutely cleat that the 'road' was a public highway. You might be talking about a road and DBLs within a large private carpark.

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Could you narrow it down a bit more than Warrington

 

Sorry, it was on Europa Boulevard according to the ticket but it was actually a side road leading nowhere, it was the Next sale and the car park was full, lots of cars parked on the verge, council obviously taking advantage of the situation.

 

I also believe that it should be the parking warden's duty to report worn out lines since he/she sees them everyday.

 

PCN :: 17072010025.jpg picture by twodogs41 - Photobucket

 

PCN :: 17072010025.jpg picture by twodogs41 - Photobucket

 

PCN :: 17072010025.jpg picture by twodogs41 - Photobucket

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OK but what if I were to say to a speeding fine "I was only doing 33 in a 30 zone officer as I can't be expected to watch the speedo and the road all the time".

 

 

How many people have ever been prosecuted for doing 33 in a 30? C&U regs allow for a variation of 10% in a speedo so you cannot get done for 33 mph.

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How many people have ever been prosecuted for doing 33 in a 30? C&U regs allow for a variation of 10% in a speedo so you cannot get done for 33 mph.

 

It's actually +10% -0%, anyway the point I was trying to make is the rule is 30 not 33 or 35 or anything above 30 - that is the rule. The regulations on double yellow lines are very specific and even state "exemptions - none".

 

So in my opinion it is very straight forward.

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As a competant driver, you are expected to know what speed you are travelling at. If you had had any lessons, you would have been taught how to look at your instrument panel without jeopardizing yourself.

Frederickson - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - Lost - Claiming back from post office

Connaught Collections - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - No Agreement - returned to client

Lowell - CCA sent 11/4/07 - No agreement - returned to client

Moorcroft - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - No Agreement - returned to client

Red Castle - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - Copy returned but no T&C's

Robinson Way - CCA Sent 16/5/07

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As a competant driver, you are expected to know what speed you are travelling at. If you had had any lessons, you would have been taught how to look at your instrument panel without jeopardizing yourself.

 

 

Thanks for your coment, pointless as it is. If you'd read the thread you'd understand that the point I am making is about rules and how authorities are allowed big tolerances whereas the general public are not.

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