First Class Oiks

[Madamfluff]

On Friday I had to travel from Portsmouth Harbour to London and back again and as both journeys were in the rush hour I decided to buy a first class ticket.

 

Now like most people who travel by train I like to have a table seat, facing direction of travel and next to the window, going out was no problem I got the seat I wanted, but coming back from London I had a few problems.

 

At Waterloo I jumped on the train and sat at a table seat, next to window etc, I had only been there a few minutes when 4 young oiks came over to my table and told me to move as it was their seat.

 

Now I didnt think you could reserve seats on a rush hour train and there were no seat reservations tickets, so I asked them if they had reserved the seats only to be told no but they always sat there.

 

I refused to move so one of them got a train guy ( not sure if he was revenue protection) any way he looked at my ticket and confirmed it was valid on the train - he did ask me in a nice manner if I would move to an airline type seat which was the only type of seat not occupied but I refused.

 

Anyway he just told the oiks that as I had a valid ticket he had no authority to order me off the seat.

 

My question is was he right or can a single person be told to move from a table seat for 4 so 4 people can sit together, the oiks seemed to think he was wrong and were going to report him.

[dragonkeeper]

From what you stated he ask you in nice manner, you declined.

Yes he does have a right to ask, but as you noticed he did not force you to move.

Hence the oiks were wrong.

 

 

dk

[Old-CodJA]

No, there is no authority to order you to move

 

Following a polite request by other travellers, the on train staff might politely ask you if you would mind moving to another seat in order to allow a group of people to sit together, but there is no formal authority to order you to comply. In fact, if the member of staff concerned had declined to ask you to move then that would have been in order too.

 

This "It's my seat" or "It's my train" attitude isn't uncommon I'm afraid, especially amongst those groups of people who usually travel together and in my personal experience it's usually the younger professionals that adopt it though not always. There is no right to any seat in these circumstances and unless a valid ticket is held where facilities are available to get one, no right to be on a train either.

 

If the train has reservable seats and a traveller holds a specific seat reservation, then he or she can reasonably expect to sit in that seat otherwise it's 'first come, first served'.

 

.

[Madamfluff]

Thanks Old CodJa the train guy was actually really nice to me but I could see that the attitude of the 4 annoyed him so I am glad he wont get into trouble for taking my side

[Stigy]

You say the four concerned were 'Oiks'?

 

Were they business type Oiks or young person type Oiks? As Old Codja stated, there's no rule that says you have to move, and without a seat reservation, nobody has the right to request that you move. If it incoveniences the Oiks, I suggest never moving in future too!

[dragonkeeper]

there's no rule that says you have to move, and without a seat reservation, nobody has the right to request that you move.!

 

As madamfluff stated in her post the train guy asked her in nice manner to switch seats.

 

Which I think was a reasonable Request by train guy.

 

madamfluff declined the train guy answered 'oiks'

madamfluff was concerned about the train guy being reported by 'oiks'.

 

as I said in my post the staff can only ask, if you decline there request they cannot force you.

 

 

dk

[SRPO]

...nobody has the right to request that you move...

 

Sweeping statement there Stigy, in this instance there is no lawful reason why any person cannot request the OP to move, of course there is no lawful reason for the OP to comply either.

[Stigy]

Sweeping statement there Stigy, in this instance there is no lawful reason why any person cannot request the OP to move, of course there is no lawful reason for the OP to comply either.

You're nit-picking. I meant that having a First Class ticket gives you the right to sit anywhere in 1st Class, as long as there are seats available, and said seats are not reserved (taking in to account priority seating should a less able person need them, too). I think the request was borderline 'reasonable' at best, as the only reason he was asking was to accommodate the Oiks. If seen as reasonable, then surely the passenger does have an obligation to move seats? That being the case, it surely becomes enforceable.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Stigy

[SRPO]

.. If seen as reasonable, then surely the passenger does have an obligation to move seats? That being the case, it surely becomes enforceable.

 

Nope, only on safety grounds can the request become an instruction.

Refusal to quit a carriage is also only enforceable if a byelaw has been breached.

[Old-CodJA]

Spot on SRPO,

 

The request by another passenger for train staff to move a traveller who holds a valid ticket from an unreserved seat, just so that passenger can sit next to his or her companion wholly on the grounds that 'we always sit together', is not a reasonable request in my view.

 

I have experienced it as an inspector myself years ago on a busy commuter route with a particularly loud and pushy group of season ticket holders. Whatever your personal opinion, the view I took was that the word 'always' should be substituted by the word 'usually' and that day was the one that proved the rule.

 

That sort of request might be made by any person, but so might a traveller ask staff to move someone who has a noisy child or because they fall asleep & snore etc. They might seem flippant comparisons, but they have exactly the same validity so far as authority is concerned.

 

If this were a case of a disabled or infirm traveller wishing to have their travelling companion sit with them, it might be viewed differently, but then I suggest any reasonable traveller who was being politely asked if they would mind moving, might well agree to do so under such circumstances. Even then, there would be no right or obligation to force the traveller to move, but I suggest that a polite explanation & request by the member of staff would almost certainly result in a mutually agreed resolution.

 

There is no right of favour due to any one traveller over any other where both hold valid tickets and no seat reservation is held.

 

En-route, if a traveller

 

i) holds a valid ticket for the journey being made,

ii) is in the correct class of accomodation

iii) is not sitting in a seat that has been reserved by someone else

iv) there are no health & safety issues

v) the traveller is not unco-operative or breaching any other rule in any way

 

then the requirement to quit a carriage is not enforceable under neither the Byelaws nor under the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act unless:

 

a) that carriage is being taken out of service or,

b) the train is terminating short for operational reasons

c) there is a serious health & safety concern

 

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Edited July 11, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Madamfluff]

Thanks for everyones replies and comments, just to clarify, the main reason I wouldnt leave the seat was the attitude of the young oiks who were suited and booted city types and who were very annoyed that a middleaged lady like me dared to tell them to take a hike.

 

I believe (judging by the snide comments they were giving me) that they didnt believe I had a first class ticket which is why they got the on train guy to check my ticket out.

 

If the 4 had been a family with children who wanted to sit togther I would have moved and of course I would have moved if a disabled person with or without helper needed the seat, but quite frankly these 4 idiots got right up my nose.

 

I am coming up to London again in a few weeks and if I have to get the commuter trains will get the same type of ticket and HOPEFULLY will end up on the same train and the same seat on my journey back.

[Old-CodJA]

Good for you.

 

All the best

[Hammy1962]

Great, just what we need, another middle aged class vigilante.

 

As much as you have the right to be difficult if you don't like their manner, so they have the right to challenge you about yours.

 

For a society to function, it needs all sorts, oiks and grumpy middle aged women.

 

At least they had a reason to sit together, companionship, you were just being middle aged difficult.

 

Hammy

[SRPO]

Just another reason to get rid of these ridiculously outdated First Class areas.

[dragonkeeper]

Just another reason to get rid of these ridiculously outdated First Class areas.

 

Here Here SRPO

 

well said

 

 

 

dk

[Old-CodJA]

Here Here SRPO

 

well said

 

 

 

dk

 

Yes, I'd drink to that.

 

Segregation by wallet! The sooner it's gone the better.

 

I thought I'd better clarify my comment, given the number of times I've posted on the subject of enforcing ticket validities etc.

 

I'm a firm believer in upholding the rules, but a bit of commonsense has to be applied in every case.

 

I understand the business case for greater profit from the higher fares that keeping and expanding first class allows, although I cannot think of any good moral argument for perpetuating this segregation on public transport

 

It would be far better to strive to upgrade the standard for all travellers and satisfy everyone in my book.

 

.

.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

Great, just what we need, another middle aged class vigilante.

 

As much as you have the right to be difficult if you don't like their manner, so they have the right to challenge you about yours.

 

For a society to function, it needs all sorts, oiks and grumpy middle aged women.

 

At least they had a reason to sit together, companionship, you were just being middle aged difficult.

 

Hammy

 

Hammy meet another middle aged difficult woman:evil:.....if I paid for the ticket and I was first in the seat and these oiks did the same to me, I wouldn't oblige them... come to think of it, you are nearly middle aged, so what will you be like

[tiredTraveller]

to be fair I've been on the receiving end of someone calling me 'scruffy' and claiming that I just didn't look like the kind of person who should be allowed to inhabit first class. After all - I was wearing jeans, T-shirt and trainers so obviously I'm not the kind of person to sit in a seat politely without a fuss, leaving only for my stop or to offer my seat if it looks like it's needed.

 

Luckily on this occasion I just smiled and politely agreed that I'm not the kind of person who should be allowed to sit in first class on the basis that I didn't have a valid ticket, and if they'd rather not be surrounded by plebs like me then maybe they should take their first class ticket and go sit in the first class area. The look on their face as they realised what I meant was priceless

[Madamfluff]

Great, just what we need, another middle aged class vigilante.

 

As much as you have the right to be difficult if you don't like their manner, so they have the right to challenge you about yours.

 

For a society to function, it needs all sorts, oiks and grumpy middle aged women.

 

At least they had a reason to sit together, companionship, you were just being middle aged difficult.

 

Hammy

 

Sorry Love I am working class

[Hammy1962]

'Proper' working class wouldn't sit in 1st.

 

Must be 'new' money, especially living on Isle of Wight.

 

Hammy