Ex JBW and Philips bailiff makes an FOI request to Westminster about bailiff fees and ANPR operations!!!

[letsmakeamark]

This could be embarrassing for Westminster !!

 

Jason Hillier was the JBW bailiff who used to be on TV with Mr Waller in the TV series called "Beat the Bailiff".

 

When Waller lost the Westminster contract to Philips, Jason Hillier left the company to work with Philips as their Bailiff Manager. Looks like he has left Philips and has concerns about the fees that Westminster were allowing Philips bailiffs to charge.

 

Looks like he is also asking questions about ANPR operations and the way in which Philips work with the police to stop vehicles for unpaid parking tickets.

May be he has some trade secrets neither Mr Waller nor Philips want to get out ?

 

Have a read here :

Philips Bailiff fee explanation and Met Police ANPR operations involving Philips Bailiffs - WhatDoTheyKnow

[tomtubby]

This could be embarrassing for Westminster !!

 

Jason Hillier was the JBW bailiff who used to be on TV with Mr Waller in the TV series called "Beat the Bailiff".

 

When Waller lost the Westminster contract to Philips, Jason Hillier left the company to work with Philips as their Bailiff Manager. Looks like he has left Philips and has concerns about the fees that Westminster were allowing Philips bailiffs to charge.

 

Looks like he is also asking questions about ANPR operations and the way in which Philips work with the police to stop vehicles for unpaid parking tickets.

May be he has some trade secrets neither Mr Waller nor Philips want to get out ?

 

Have a read here :

Philips Bailiff fee explanation and Met Police ANPR operations involving Philips Bailiffs - WhatDoTheyKnow

 

 

 

Very INTERESTING website. Must put that one with my "favorites"...

 

This confirms rumours that I have heard recenly that Mr Hillier had left the industry...not just Philips.

 

 

I thought at first that he was only asking questions of Westminster but having had a look around the website he has also made FOI's to TfL, Camden and London Borough of Southwark.

 

[EDIT]. we have had serious concerns at the charges that Westminster permit Philips bailiff to charge for PCN enforcement.

 

Westminster maintained when they awarded this contract (which had previoulsy been with JBW) that the fees would be "capped".

 

I have read many Contracts and "my understanding" was that the "capped" fee would be for £200. This would be in ADDITION to the cost of the PCN at Warrant stage which would be £185.

 

This is made quite clear from the following clause:

 

"This means that it will not be unreasonable to demand payment IN FULL (where a manageable £95 fine can turn into an unaffordable debt in excess of £500. Philips forecasts that with the charging structure in place for this Contract there will therefore be a higher amount of warrants paid in full"

 

 

It now transpires that the "capped" fees are £200 for EACH visit and from the many complaints that we receive the amount demanded at the door by the bailiff is £668 ( a bit different from the "anaffordable" debt in excess of £500 !!!

 

Don't even get me started on the use of ANPR vehicles to stop motorists with unpaid parking tickets....more on this later......

 

PS: Must put a note in my diary for 19th July (which is the final date in which Westminster should repy to this FOI) !!

Edited July 9, 2010 by tomtubby

[TasmanianDevil]

Good morning,

 

It appears my name is mentioned again! I will use my right of reply on this forum to have my say.

 

Letsmakeamark you are correct that I did work for JBW as an ANPR Manager for several years and I am aware of your following of this firm over this time. You are also correct in saying that I left JBW to work for Philips when Westminster re awarded the contract in 2008.

 

My motivation in sending FOI requests to WCC and other LA`s is clear to me but perhaps not the public at this point. Let me explain further.....The increase in the use of ANPR by private Bailiff firms is revenue related clearly. No surprise there eh? No one can deny a firm the ability to make money. However, in 2005, ANPR was new and people didn`t know anything on the laws that in time would be broken. Now, some 5 years later, MOPs are more educated and with the advent of forums such as this, we are all able to learn more on the rights and wrongs of matters. This includes me also!

 

As has been mentioned earlier, I have now left the Bailiff industry and in the near future, more of my colleagues will also leave as the 80K a year earnings are being reduced hugely now. The industry is finished as a money earner for Bailiffs now. The only reason why Bailiffs do the job is because they want to make money. The less money they all make, the less motivation they have to carry on doing the job.

 

My FOI requests are intended to shed some light on some operational issues that I know are questionable and have not been brought to light before. Now that I have moved on, I am able to raise these issues. No hidden agenda. I parted relationships with JBW for business reasons and and I was dismissed from Philips for refusing to sign a revised contract that was to the detriment of my circumstances. Yes, this matter was upsetting to me but life continues. "When one door closes" bla bla bla!

 

I am happy to have left a now declining industry to move on elsewhere and I am interested to read the replies from my FOI requests as and when they come in (If at all). I know that the LA`s will be chatting to legal and the ACEA etc and I imagine the replies will be wolly to say the least. Of course this will be a huge mistake as I will further my enquiry if needs be.

 

At this point, I am aware that Bailiffs and their bosses are chatting and my name is mud but they all remain quiet. Odd? Not really as each and every one of them knows that if my FOI requests deliver bad news for ANPR operational protocol, it will cost them all money! And to simplify the matter, they are all quiet as they all know that the issues that I have raised are legal, correct and need addressing.

 

What are really the costs? Well......mark up the vans with "CCTV aware" or similar signs so MOPs know what the vans are (RIPA compliant). Ensure Bailiff back office (BOS) is secure and DPA compliant and ensure that security of DPA is intact when Bailiffs take the ANPR vans home. Not a huge amount to ask?

 

Mr K, I will address any matters that you may wish to raise with me but I have just seen another post to me from you and I remind you that I have left the industry now and I am trying to address matters. My "Rock" is a cool place today here in East London. How`s Kent?

[letsmakeamark]

Like i said we need more people from the industry to come forward and also to give everybody an insight into it. Previously people have come on and stayed for a while and then gone. Also people that stay from the industry always give out negative advice.

[Dodgy Geezer]

 

As has been mentioned earlier, I have now left the Bailiff industry and in the near future, more of my colleagues will also leave as the 80K a year earnings are being reduced hugely now. The industry is finished as a money earner for Bailiffs now. The only reason why Bailiffs do the job is because they want to make money. The less money they all make, the less motivation they have to carry on doing the job.

 

 

I am happy to have left a now declining industry

.

my name is mud

 

Thank you for posting this Mud, not what i normally call you,

this makes very interesting reading.

[TasmanianDevil]

What`s my "Normal" name then?

[Dodgy Geezer]

Take your pick.

[TasmanianDevil]

Charming! Hey, I have the gym in the am and then free all day so let`s meet for a chat eh? Always free to chat with a big person like you darling!

[postggj]

no insults please

 

please keep posting tasmaniandevil

 

the reason people are being hostile is you had no quarms about screewing people when you worked in the baliff industry

 

sour grapes comes to mind but any info you can give is appreciated

 

ime being neutral

[Dodgy Geezer]

I was actually trying to be light hearted. Please keep posting.

[BankFodder]

There are loads of peple in this forum wo have had jobs with banks, DCA's, as traffic wardens etec and who come here either because they need some help of because they are able to provide some help.

 

I think that they should all be welcome.

[TasmanianDevil]

LOL!!! No worries people. I was called a lot worse over my 7 years as a Bailiff.

[tomtubby]

Re-reading your FOI request I noticed that you have also questioned the right of Westminster bailiffs to be involved in police operations using Section 44 of the Terrorist Act.

 

In light of the Home Secretary (Teresa May's) announcement on Thursday that the police had been stripped of their widely abused power to stop and search innocent people, I have written to Westminster to ask for confirmation that these "West End Operations" will cease immediately.

 

 

Keep posting TD.

[Bartok]

more of my colleagues will also leave as the 80K a year earnings are being reduced hugely now. The industry is finished as a money earner for Bailiffs now.

 

An interesting comment. What happened that changed the industry? People still get PCN's, get fined, get unpaid council tax and biz rates bills etc. Is it because high profits natrually attract competition?

 

I knew someone who worked at Equita doing unpaid biz rates for Westminster and he said the money was very lucrative. We hear on these forums that bailiffs diversify as HCEO's and charge thousands in miscellaenous fees per case.

[letsmakeamark]

I started this thread off so that people get a insight to the bailiff industry not to have a slanging match. If anybody wants to slap anybody off start your own thread.

[TasmanianDevil]

ANPR vehicle cost= £24,000. If a Bailiff buys his own, he will want to work as a "Private ANPR" operative. Apart from the problems with his HMRC status as self employed is dubious, he will also want to sub contract for as many different Bailiff firms as possible. Most LA`s now demand that their Bailiff contractors do NOT use such private ANPR Bailiffs at all. So £24,000 is a wast of money now! The options:

 

Work for a Bailiff firm and hire an ANPR from them at £250 per week. Factor in £70 per week fuel and £40 per week Con charge=£360 costs before a Bailiff has made a penny. Factor in your Income Tax and NI contributions and it`s game over. The nice Bailiff firms even deduct £25 from each warrant collected before taking their share of the fees. Now that "Door knocker" Bailiffs no longer make a living at all, they are all moving over to ANPR vehicles. This means more ANPR looking for the same debtor`s vehicles. As the yanks say "You do the math".

 

As there is more light being shed on Bailiffs fees by MOP`s and Stat Decs rise, Bailiffs now chase their tails to make a living. I even know of some guys that are now even in debt themselves! Bailiff firms profits are dropping and they are squeezing their margins day to day and they are all worried now! "Shame" I hear you all cry!

[TasmanianDevil]

Re-reading your FOI request I noticed that you have also questioned the right of Westminster bailiffs to be involved in police operations using Section 44 of the Terrorist Act.

 

In light of the Home Secretary (Teresa May's) announcement on Thursday that the police had been stripped of their widely abused power to stop and search innocent people, I have written to Westminster to ask for confirmation that these "West End Operations" will cease immediately.

 

 

Keep posting TD.

 

Hi TT,

 

Whilst Sect 44 was used by MPS on certain road ops, it was mainly due to the particular unit we worked with (They were from Paddy Green nick) which is slightly different. Remember, Sect 44 covers all angles for plod as they can use it to stop MoPs who are on foot, not just in vehicles. What is normally used is The Road traffic Act that allows for any Constable in uniform to stop a moving vehicle. When the Police checks are done, the PC will introduce the motorist to the Bailiff. All of this is legal from a Police powers point of view.

 

It is the ethical use of Police time in general that is the question to ask. Bearing all this in mind, the joint ops are liked by the MPS as some generate overtime for the boys and girls in blue from LA budgets and others are used as "Street duty" training for new recruits.

 

I see no real problem with the ops if they were solely for the collection of HMCS criminal warrants but civil PCNs is a bit raw. It`s a bit like plod pulling me over, doing their checks and then introding me to my Bank Manager as I am beyong my overdraft! A PCN is a charge, not a fine remember!

 

Also, it`s not just WCC but other London LA`s such as Wandsworth and Islington that carry out these ops!

 

I hope the above helps a bit!

[seanamarts]

 

As there is more light being shed on Bailiffs fees by MOP`s and Stat Decs rise, Bailiffs now chase their tails to make a living. I even know of some guys that are now even in debt themselves! Bailiff firms profits are dropping and they are squeezing their margins day to day and they are all worried now! "Shame" I hear you all cry!

Maybe if the bailiffs were a little more helpful. a little more understanding and didnt lie, cheat and bully debtors into paying their debts (which rightly so should be paid) then may be a happy medium could be sought and the bailiff could earn a decent crust because more people would be willing to communicate with them. Their greed is their demise, and its been a long time coming. I feel bad for the bailiffs who do go by the book because its their fellow bailiffs that have put them in this situation in the first place.

Bailiffs have to do a job, we all can understand that, but you keep cocking that job up you end up paying the price, that goes for any jobs.

[TasmanianDevil]

Maybe if the bailiffs were a little more helpful. a little more understanding and didnt lie, cheat and bully debtors into paying their debts (which rightly so should be paid) then may be a happy medium could be sought and the bailiff could earn a decent crust because more people would be willing to communicate with them. Their greed is their demise, and its been a long time coming. I feel bad for the bailiffs who do go by the book because its their fellow bailiffs that have put them in this situation in the first place.

Bailiffs have to do a job, we all can understand that, but you keep cocking that job up you end up paying the price, that goes for any jobs.

 

Probably the most sensible post on here!!!

 

I was part of an ANPR team that prided ourselves on being firm but fair with MoPs. The £80k earnings I mentioned in an earlier post was down to long hours, 6 days a week and hard work and was only ever earnt the 1 year! The team had now parted and the guys are earning pennies now. Oddly, the more money you make on the circuit, the more flexible you are and you would be amazed on the number of times Bailiffs let people go due to various reasons. When times are tough as they are now, the gloves come off and Bailiffs behave badly as they are desperate. I don`t see matters improving!

[seanamarts]

Probably the most sensible post on here!!!

 

I was part of an ANPR team that prided ourselves on being firm but fair with MoPs. The £80k earnings I mentioned in an earlier post was down to long hours, 6 days a week and hard work and was only ever earnt the 1 year! The team had now parted and the guys are earning pennies now. Oddly, the more money you make on the circuit, the more flexible you are and you would be amazed on the number of times Bailiffs let people go due to various reasons. When times are tough as they are now, the gloves come off and Bailiffs behave badly as they are desperate. I don`t see matters improving!

I have to say 'being desperate' is no excuse for many of the behavior that I have personally witnessed plus what I have read in here and seen on the news, and the police do not help with matters. There needs to be more education given out with regards to bailiffs, as most do not even know the regulations/ laws and that includes the police, councils and even the court system. The law seems archaic and needs to be bought up to the 21st century especially with our economic climate and the way it is heading.

[TasmanianDevil]

I have to say 'being desperate' is no excuse for many of the behavior that I have personally witnessed plus what I have read in here and seen on the news, and the police do not help with matters. There needs to be more education given out with regards to bailiffs, as most do not even know the regulations/ laws and that includes the police, councils and even the court system. The law seems archaic and needs to be bought up to the 21st century especially with our economic climate and the way it is heading.

 

Agreed again. There is no excuse and bad behaviour is always wrong and in some cases illegal. The Police get about 1 hour of training on Bailiff matters and then normally only attend an incident to "Prevent a breach of the peace".

 

Yes the law does need reforming but the Govnt need the motivation to change laws that date back way before you and I were born. With the economic climate, the Govnt may turn a blind eye as they and local Govnt need the money. We will see in time perhaps.

 

On your point about training and Bailiffs knowing the law. Agreed also. However they are Bailiffs working for private firms and whilst they are in a classroom as rookies, they are not earning money for Bailiff bosses. In fact they cost money. They are sent out to deal with MOPs with little more than a weeks traning at best and told to "Get on with it". Targets are high and in most case, are now not realistic.

 

Those of us that have been in the job for a while learn the law as knowledge makes us money but our breed is now dead and as my friends in construction and the security industry will confirm, the next breed will be recruited from East Europe. I kid you not!

[postggj]

An Offence Occurs If The Police Are In Cahoots With The Baliff Company

 

1/ Plod With Baliff

2/ Baliff Anpr Has A Hit And Gets Plod To Stop The Vehicle

3/offence Has Occured As Pcn Etc Are A Civil Matter And The Baliff Has Committed An Offence Under The Dpa By Releasing The Data To Plod

 

The Police Have No Powers To Stop You On Instruction From A Baliff Anpr And Will Be Judged As An Abuse Of Power

[seanamarts]

the next breed will be recruited from East Europe. I kid you not!

Oh thats gonna go down well with many people, not just the debtors either.

It will also open a whole new can of whoop ass!!

[TasmanianDevil]

An Offence Occurs If The Police Are In Cahoots With The Baliff Company

 

1/ Plod With Baliff

2/ Baliff Anpr Has A Hit And Gets Plod To Stop The Vehicle

3/offence Has Occured As Pcn Etc Are A Civil Matter And The Baliff Has Committed An Offence Under The Dpa By Releasing The Data To Plod

 

The Police Have No Powers To Stop You On Instruction From A Baliff Anpr And Will Be Judged As An Abuse Of Power

 

Agreed but your quotes are merely semantics...although correct. More than one way to skin a cat as this avenue will never achieve anything!

 

1/ Plod with BLF (So?)

2/ BLF Anpr has hit and plod stops vehicle (Legal)

3/Correct PCN is a civil matter but no offence under DPA as only the VRM is released on radio. No other data.

 

Just hang tight. More answers to follow.

[TasmanianDevil]

Oh thats gonna go down well with many people, not just the debtors either.

It will also open a whole new can of whoop ass!!

 

What do you mean? Either I give my educated opinion or maybe I should shut up! Maybe you prefer comments from "Walters and Wannabees" instead? Up to you mate. No skin of my nose................