Hi all, some advice please.

[niknakszaks]

Would that entry not show Termination of contract though?

 

Anyway onto more pressing matters

 

I received a letter today , stating that I am in breach of the court order and under CPR 17 that I needed permission to amend my defence.

 

Which is a bit of a joke.

It appears that although the papers were served on time at the court, the DCA did not receive them till the following morning.

The order stated before 4pm on Monday, is this such a massive breach ?

Considering the fact the DCA never complied with pre trial protocol sending through to me their evidence before the last hearing, the judge ordered me to;

 

1) file and serve evidence in respect of the application by 4pm on Monday

(paraphrasing this slightly)

"we have recieved you document entitled 'Amended defence' this AM. You describe on the doc that you were ordered by the court to do this.

 

We point out the DJ made no such order. In effect you are in breach of the order by not supplying your evidence or on time.

You are required to have permission of the court under CPR 17 to amend'

 

Sigh

I feel this is just a tactic of course, but I thought I better get the word on this.

Thanks again all.

[unclebulgaria67]

No the bad debt write off, is not termination of the account. They would have to send you a letter if they were terminating.

 

In regard to the other side not receiving the papers until the following morning, I doubt this is any big deal. Write to the court with a copy of their letter, explaining this delay.

 

If you ask the court staff about this issue, they will probably be able to clarify this for you.

[citizenB]

Hmmm, not sure.

 

You have a court order that states you are to do something by a certain date. Ok, you were late, that is for the court to determine if they will or wont accept it. As they are usually a few days behind with their paperwork anyway, they would normally give leeway of a day.

 

As Unclebulgaria says, speak to the court and see if they have accepted it, if so , then the opposition can go take a hike..

 

But find out from the court first.

[niknakszaks]

Just to clarify;

The court accepted it as I took it there in person before the deadline.

I got a Slip from the clerk and even signed by her.

 

Its the DCA claiming that I breached the order;

I have just checked, the papers to the DCA solicitors was delivered 9.30am on Tues morning ( i have proof of reciept too)

So in working time scales they got it at most 2 hours late.

 

Also if it is true that the court should grant permission for a change in evidence, then surely this would go for the DCA too, who took over a year in with a Stay to come up with something - seems highly unfair and 1 sided if you can't rebuff their evidence.

[citizenB]

Just to clarify;

The court accepted it as I took it there in person before the deadline.

I got a Slip from the clerk and even signed it in front of her.

 

Its the DCA claiming that I breached the order;

I have just checked, the papers to the DCA solicitors was delivered 9.30am on Tues morning ( i have proof of reciept too)

So in working time scales they got it at most 2 hours late.

 

Then you can

 

a) either ignore their letter or

 

b) send them a short note back advising that you have a receipt proving when they received their copy and the court copy was submitted on time for which you also have a receipt. That if they feel they are going to suffer any prejudice then they have the right to make their complaint to the court.

[niknakszaks]

Ok thanks.

 

I wil lsend them a letter and then a copy /additional to the court with a copy of their letter.

 

Its as I thought to be fair, but after reading too much on here, some of the dirty tricks used, I thought it better to do something rather then nothing#

 

Thanks again both of you.

[niknakszaks]

found it, sry if you came to post.

 

BUT!

 

I do have another question.

How do you address and direct a DJ to case law in a polite manner.

It is apparent from other posts, that this 'balance of probability' is used too much.

I want to be ready for this, and how would one direct the DJ in this instance without upsetting them.

i.e posh way to say sorry you are wrong, look at this case law as it describes what you should be doing.

Edited July 15, 2010 by niknakszaks

[Ganymede]

found it, sry if you came to post.

 

BUT!

 

I do have another question.

How do you address and direct a DJ to case law in a polite manner.

It is apparent from other posts, that this 'balance of probability' is used too much.

I want to be ready for this, and how would one direct the DJ in this instance without upsetting them.

i.e posh way to say sorry you are wrong, look at this case law as it describes what you should be doing.

 

 

You've answered your own question here.

 

Just say something like "Sir, may I respectfully refer you to the case of XXXXXXXXX/Section XXX of XXXXXX act which states that XXXXXXXXXX."

[niknakszaks]

You've answered your own question here.

 

Just say something like "Sir, may I respectfully refer you to the case of XXXXXXXXX/Section XXX of XXXXXX act which states that XXXXXXXXXX."

yeah probably

TY for your help.

 

*edit* found it finaly.

Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

 

thanks

Edited July 16, 2010 by niknakszaks

[citizenB]

Nicnak, you should find links to cases

 

The Consumer Forums - Cases

 

and to statutes

 

The Consumer Forums - Statutes

 

CAG has quite a good library of information

[niknakszaks]

Thanks CB,

 

its sometimes finding the wording in the specific case.

The legal jargon throws me a little - sometimes takes 3 or 4 reads before it sinks in.

[citizenB]

Thanks CB,

 

its sometimes finding the wording in the specific case.

The legal jargon throws me a little - sometimes takes 3 or 4 reads before it sinks in.

 

I dont think you are alone there:D Still the more you read, the more it sticks in your mind.. all useful stuff.

[niknakszaks]

Well that did NOT go well at all.

Talk about hostility towards a LIP !

My defence was rejected in its entirety as it was 'amended' and i did not have permission to do so

Therefore he only would hear the original defence to the claim form that was submitted in 2008. ( they sent it without any details, nor me any pre litigation warning etc)

(I originally defended that without evidence then it was abuse of court process and I can't even submit an embarrassed defence), I guess hence the stay.

 

Needless to say SJ was granted, along with no permission to appeal based on the grounds I had no chance of defending.

I had dug myself a deeper hole as I had used words I did not understand said the DDJ( he never asked me if I Understood what I had said in my defence to the claim form !)

 

So in summery, he accepted all the varied evidence from the DCA, threw all of mine out - therfore I had failed the direction of the court previously.

Taking notes and listening to him, whilst he was talking about costs etc, he said I was 'ignorant' and should 'listen to what he was saying'.

He would hear no evidence from me as it was not submitted as directed.

The DCA solicitor was just there for the ride, he was not asked to prove anything, apart from 'how much costs' and how much interest.

When DDJ asked how I would like to pay , i responded with can I have leave to appeal - denied, and then he moved to 'make payment forthwith'

 

Anyway I got a form for appeal to Circuit Judge, not sure on what path to take as it stands.

 

off to lolok at CPR 24 as that was mentioned by him with regards to the SJ application.

Any thought or advice welcomed

Edited July 20, 2010 by niknakszaks

[42man]

I'm really dismayed at reading this Niknak....we know that judges vary wildly....sounds like yours was not very understanding...

 

 

Access to Justice - Lord Woolf

Chapter 17 - Litigants in Person

1. At every level of the civil justice system litigants are bringing cases without any formal legal representation. A number do so from choice, particularly within the small claims scheme. Many more are forced to do so because they cannot afford the high and often disproportionate costs of legal representation and are not eligible for legal aid. The same reason leads to many more being effectively barred from access to justice as they either do not know of their rights to make or defend a claim or do not know how to do so. Notwithstanding their difficulties throughout the justice system, however, their numbers are increasing. The precise extent of the increase is unknown. It should, from now on, be monitored in cases where a defence has been served.

2. Only too often the litigant in person is regarded as a problem for judges and for the court system rather than the person for whom the system of civil justice exists. The true problem is the court system and its procedures which are still too often inaccessible and incomprehensible to ordinary people.

3. I believe it is essential to the success of my proposals that the courts themselves should in future take a more pro-active role in relation to unrepresented litigants, both in giving information about sources of professional advice and other outside help, and in themselves providing direct assistance. Both court staff and judges must recognize the needs of litigants in person and, if necessary, adjust their approach so that there is no suggestion that they are being treated as an exception or even a nuisance.

4. At the same time there is a need to improve the advice and assistance available and to ensure that litigants have early contact with whatever source of advice is available. Although the judge can preserve equality of arms at the hearing between represented and unrepresented litigants, and although my proposals for small claims envisage a greater degree of judicial involvement to ensure that litigants present the case more effectively, the judge's help in presenting the unrepresented party's case is not a substitute for thorough preparation by a professional or other adviser.

5. Contributors to the provincial seminars and representatives of the Advice Services Alliance have all stressed that it is particularly important to ensure that effective help and advice are available to those litigants who are most disadvantaged and least able to help themselves. The key needs of litigants are for:

• a system which is understandable and responsive to their needs;

• information and advice on different ways of resolving problems;

• information and advice on how to make a claim and how to respond to a claim, as a defendant; and

• advice and assistance on preparing and presenting their case.

6. There is also a need for education about the legal system in a broader sense. Citizens need to be informed about their rights and obligations in order to become responsible members of society. I commend the educational work which is being done in this field by organisations such as the Citizenship Foundation which was established in 1989 and has built on the pioneering work of the Law in Education Project.

The new rules

7. One of the objectives of my Inquiry is to simplify the rules and procedures of civil litigation so that they will be more easily understood and followed by litigants as well as their advisers. The present rules are complex and daunting in themselves. They are made more impenetrable for the average litigant in person by the accretion of the case law which amplifies many of the rules. The language and format of the rules act as a barrier to the use of the civil justice system by ordinary people and make it difficult for them to bring or defend a case if they cannot afford legal assistance or representation. The situation is made worse for them if they have tried to understand and comply with the rules only to find that they appear to be flouted by lawyers and that this is effectively condoned by the courts.

8. My approach to the rules is set out in chapter 26. That chapter contains examples of the complexity of the existing procedure and language. I intend that the language of the rules and the way they are set out should be easier to understand. To help achieve this, Helen Brown from the Information and Production Department of the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux and Marlene Winfield from the National Consumer Council are included in the small group advising on preparation of the rules.

9. The new rules will, in general, provide one way to begin court proceedings, rather than several different ways as at present. This will make it easier for all litigants, not only litigants in person. The forms are an important aspect of this. The Civil Justice Review recommended the simplification of forms (Recommendation 49). I hope to achieve this by recommending a single improved claim form. It will assist litigants to set out the information on which their claim is based. It will also require information to be included so that the court, rather than the litigant, can decide which is the correct track and the correct court for the case. This should make entry to the courts easier.

10. From the consultation process I am aware of concern that many people with a valid defence do not respond to proceedings issued against them. Their need is not only for clear forms to enable them to set this out but, more often, for advice on whether they have a defence. I deal with this in paragraphs 30-32 below.

[niknakszaks]

Thank you 42man.

I am not sure if I have grounds for a complaint.

As I understand the situation now, time is paramount for any continuation of this.

I do intend fully to continue this, as I do feel I have a good case. I think the DDJ knew this, and hence threw out my defence.

What bothers me is this seems very very unfair, that a 'claimant' can vary their attack on you without seeking permission from the court to change evidence submitted, yet as a defendant we need to.

At no time have I admitted liability to the response form, yet the DDJ contended that I had done so - the only place I did this was on my amended defence, it seems logical to me that if he used that part of my witness statement, then surely he should have used the whole of it.

BTW for anyone woundering this was in HULLCC, I have read some previous horror stories and contacted one member who was in a similar position to me previously.

The problem is that it does appear in my opinion the court is hostile towards LIP and/or these types of claims.

And Hi to the ppl from there that do read CAG *waves*

[niknakszaks]

wow, really feel like I have been hung out to dry now.

Anyone got any recommendations for a Barrister or Firm that specialise in these matters?

[unclebulgaria67]

If I were you I would speak to Community Legal to see if they can set up a meeting with someone that might be able to help.

 

Community Legal Advice - free legal advice for residents of England and Wales, paid for by legal aid

[niknakszaks]

Bump, no one from site team got any input on this?

[unclebulgaria67]

If you click on the red triangle and ask, then this will alert the site team.

[niknakszaks]

If you click on the red triangle and ask, then this will alert the site team.

 

I had already done that, but thanks anyway.

[unclebulgaria67]

I had already done that, but thanks anyway.

 

I suspect this is too complex to get into on a public forum, which is why I suggested that you get some help from a solicitor.

 

I think you will find that the legal profession and the judiciary, often socialise within the same circles, so if you are looking to challenge a judges rulling, this may prove difficult.

[niknakszaks]

I suspect this is too complex to get into on a public forum, which is why I suggested that you get some help from a solicitor.

 

I think you will find that the legal profession and the judiciary, often socialise within the same circles, so if you are looking to challenge a judges rulling, this may prove difficult.

 

ha, I suspected as such.

If i could have afforded a solicitor I would not have ended up here in the first place though

[supasnooper]

There are several threads on the forum that offer some guidance on making an appeal.

 

Have you searched the site ?

 

If I remember correctly, there are threads with appeals stuff, started by Mydogsawestie and also Shakespeare62.

 

CAG is set up as a self help site, and the advice offered is usually from personal experience or from what people have learned from others.

 

The appeal route is not one followed very often by CAG members due to facing the prohibitive costs order against them should the appeal fail.

[niknakszaks]

Thanks for the post.

I appreciate it is a self help site, but could not understand why I could not get any advice other then just visit a solicitor

I have read some threads about appealing, but my thoughts are is it possible to go for a set aside on the grounds that I never got the opportunity to respond to the evidence.