Son Neglected In Hospital

[lady-in-red]

oh i forgot, when he was flown to london from our local, the receiving hospital said his hygene was very bad when he arrived, we know he had a big black hair stuck to his lips and the receiving hospital took a photo of this, also his catheter was put in wrong and he had a big infection there, the receiving hospital also said that our local was using the wrong tape to hold his intubating tube in thats why his mouth was all cut, so really its neglect and also they hadnt done anything to protect the haematoma from infection he never had any thing put on the haematoma , but the receiving hospital covered it with cling film to keep it clean simply hygene but our local forgot to do neglect i dont care if it takes me 10 years i want answers to what went wrong in their ITU

[frankieg]

One thing I forgot to mention was , if you haven't gotten his medical records from this first hospital, get them now. As EIVAD5 notes in his 'missing records' posting when a hospital starts being held to account they conveniently 'lose 'the notes. Without those notes they can deny everything and as has been in the news lately, notes can be altered. So anyone trying to prove clinical negligence-get the notes first, then complain. I got my dads as soon as I realized there was a problem and what I read allowed me to 'back up' my arguments .

I hate to say it but have to agree with 'my-spirit-soars-free' if you are claiming it was the flu that caused his chronic lung problems, you are going to have problems proving clinical negligence. You see antibiotics only work against bacteria and flu is caused by a virus- so its not negligent to withhold antibiotics from a patient with the flu. The only way it would be 'poor medical judgment ' is if because he was weakened by the viral infection, bacteria was able to 'move in' -its called a opportune infection. So get the notes and look for any lab work- sputum specimens particularly and look for positive cultures- you need to show that somewhere in his body he had a bacterial infection in which case it would be negligent not to give antibiotics. It would be very helpful if you could could post official' diagnoses is for his continued problems. the chronic breathing one at least.

[Night Owl]

Hi Glitterlady,

having a quick look here whilst at work!

Glad to see you are getting some good coments to think about.

Good luck x

[lady-in-red]

thankyou nightowlxxxxxxxxxxx

[lady-in-red]

Hi frankieg, thanks for your posting, i havent got his notes we had a solicitor and she went for a nursing report, but it came back as they couldnt find much do to his nursing notes were missing, so they couldnt say why his condition was so bad, we have some notes that went to the receiving hospital and thats where we found he had a haematoma and not a pressure sore, he was in prone for 17 hours, this was to long, i know he had problems with his lings but his face was oedema and massive yet they still put him in prone for 17 hours, a nurse slipped up and said"well we couldnt turn him because we didnt have the staff here that day"one doctor put a DNAR on my son and told us he was going to take down his care, 2 days later a consultant said that the doctor was wrong to say that to us, i know its neglect i just have to prove it, i did a diary every day he was in hospital so every word is written all they said to us is written with photographs as well

[lady-in-red]

it wasnt the swineflu, he aspirated twice, they should have given him antibiotics straightaway, knowing the tabs had gone into his lungs, why didnt they look after him with his hygene we could see it all were they blind or didnt they care if he died because then they could have covered it all up nicely, thats why they put a DNAR on him, they wanted him dead, they said they couldnt turn him to supine because he was critical yet they did 4 days before he was flown to the other hospital, he went by ambulace to the airfield then to heathrow then to bromton and yet he lived?? a lot of travelling for a very critical patient who couldnt be turned from prone to supine ??

[lady-in-red]

well i bought this book called HEALTH CARE LAW, and ive found something, the hospital my son was in put a DNAR on him, ONE doctor put this DNAR on him, he told us he was going to take my sons care down in a few hours and if he died he would not bring him back to the way he was at that time?? he never explained why, but in this law book i have the law is A DUTY TO EXPLAIN MISHAPS, do you remember me telling you on here, that he was in prone for 17 hours and they told us he couldnt be turned on his front because he was critical and then when they did turn it went seriously wrong which they wouldnt say what went wrong, and this is where this law book comes in handy because the law says A DUTY TO EXPLAIN MISHAPS, it says One of the major complaints made against the way in which doctors handle medical accidents is that they fail to explain what happened!!!! and this is because they fear that explainations might be seen as ADMISSIONS of LIABILITYand lead to litigations, the medical defense union has advised that"the patient is entitled to a promt sympathetic and above all TRUTHFUL ACCOUNT of what has occured PATIENTS remain in the profesional care even after accidents occur and it has been suggested that general principles indicate that failing to answer questions about their treatment might constitute MALPRACTICE, it also says unless you are stem cell dead you cannot be turned off, and the proof has to be shown that a patients is stem cell dead my son wasnt, he was turned to supine 5 days before he was flown to the other hospital so they could have moved him before that date, nothing new was done for him while in the local hospital, they did start to take his feed of him, and take parts of his care down, they wanted him to die then they wouldnt have had to answer to us, but hes alive and they will answer to us, this book tells you so much i will have these buggers, and i will not be warn down by them im a tough old boot, and they will not break me,

[Night Owl]

well i bought this book called HEALTH CARE LAW, and ive found something, the hospital my son was in put a DNAR on him, ONE doctor put this DNAR on him, he told us he was going to take my sons care down in a few hours and if he died he would not bring him back to the way he was at that time?? he never explained why, but in this law book i have the law is A DUTY TO EXPLAIN MISHAPS, do you remember me telling you on here, that he was in prone for 17 hours and they told us he couldnt be turned on his front because he was critical and then when they did turn it went seriously wrong which they wouldnt say what went wrong, and this is where this law book comes in handy because the law says A DUTY TO EXPLAIN MISHAPS, it says One of the major complaints made against the way in which doctors handle medical accidents is that they fail to explain what happened!!!! and this is because they fear that explainations might be seen as ADMISSIONS of LIABILITYand lead to litigations, the medical defense union has advised that"the patient is entitled to a promt sympathetic and above all TRUTHFUL ACCOUNT of what has occured PATIENTS remain in the profesional care even after accidents occur and it has been suggested that general principles indicate that failing to answer questions about their treatment might constitute MALPRACTICE, it also says unless you are stem cell dead you cannot be turned off, and the proof has to be shown that a patients is stem cell dead my son wasnt, he was turned to supine 5 days before he was flown to the other hospital so they could have moved him before that date, nothing new was done for him while in the local hospital, they did start to take his feed of him, and take parts of his care down, they wanted him to die then they wouldnt have had to answer to us, but hes alive and they will answer to us, this book tells you so much i will have these buggers, and i will not be warn down by them im a tough old boot, and they will not break me,

 

This is fighting talk Glitterlady!!!

 

A patient has to be proven Brain Dead through a series of tests, which are repeated, before they deem a patient Brain Dead and unable to sustain their own life. This would happen with the relatives knowledge and should be fully explained.

 

A patient deemed DNAR, or Do Not Actively Resucitate, is critically ill and life threatening, and all attempts to treat them have been unsuccessful. This can be overturned at any point if the patients condition improves. Again this must be fully discussed with the patients relatives and their wishes taken into account and recorded in the patients notes.

 

The hospital must be held accountable for the injuries you have photographic proof of.

It is down to them to prove that this injuries were not sustained through negligence.

 

Good luck x

[lady-in-red]

they never disgust anything with us we were told they were putting a DNAR on him i shouted NO NO you wont i wont let you he said he would give my son a few more hours then take his care down not his nutitional feed or medication but his care, there was noone we could ask no one to turn to no one could stop it, what do others do in this situation do we just let them turn our loved ones off just like that is there anything we can do and say "Hey your not turning no one off " would they listen do they have to listen, who knows i can not find anything on this DNAR ruling

[Night Owl]

Hi Glitterlady.

 

DNAR status MUST be discussed by the consultant involved in the patients care at that time, with the immediate next of kin and relatives.

The concerns of the next of kins views must be listened to and discussed along with the medical facts.

It MUST BY LAW be documented in the medical notes as it involves the care given by the multidisciplinary team too.

It is considered an end of life stage and should be treated as such with the appropriate end of life care............ie making the patient comfortable and pain free in the months, weeks, days, hours to come.

 

Turning off ventilatory support can only happen following a set of specific brain tests to prove brain death. These tests prove that the patient is unable to maintain independent breathing and brain function to sustain life.

These tests will be repeated and again the results will be documented in the patients notes.

Again the next of kin must give consent for these tests to be carried out and the consequences discussed fully.

 

DNAR status is not something taken lightly.

It can however be reversed if the patients condition improves. Again any changes to the DNAR status must be discussed and documented.

DNAR status can be removed at any time but must be documented.

[lady-in-red]

thankyou nightowl for that info, so when that doctor said we are going to take down my sons care, what did he mean, what care, his medication, or his nutritional feed or his ventalator, what does care mean, my son wasnt brain damaged, he was on the ventilator for his oxygen, life support but was heavly sedated as well, but the doctors and nurses said they found it hard to sedate him because he kept waking up and moving and chewing the vent, so he wasnt brain dead why the DNAR, my little grandson was resusettated 7 times in great ormond street and he was born with problems he was 4 years old when he left us, so why did they need to put a DNAR on my son so many questions with no answers, 3 days after this doctor said he was going to take his care down, the clinical director told us the doctor was wrong to have said that , and it was neglect more should have been done for my son but wasnt, his words it is neglect they know it is and i wont stop till they admit it and say sorry to our faces

[Night Owl]

Sounds like appaling lack of communication between you and the medical team looking after your son.

 

Anything a doctor says to a patient or next of kin must be said in a way that is fully understood by all. Medical terminology must be explained and can be simplified so that a lay person can understand the meanings.

The patient and next of kin have every right to ask questions if they don't understand something that is being said to them.

 

I'm a little concerned that you say your son was heavily sedated and ventilated but was still able to

"kept waking up and moving and chewing the vent"

Was your son on some sort of positive airway pressure setting on his ventilator? meaning he had a tube down into his airway to ventilate his lungs under pressure so that he could make an attempt at breathing.

The sedation may have been lighter to encourage your son to make some effort in breathing but with the support of the ventilator adding some pressure to keep the airways from collapsing.

 

The term "taking his care down" puzzles me.

Patients care can't be taken down like some sort of red, amber, green system used to alert threat attacks.

 

Again very appaling communication between the doctors and yourselves.

 

PS Just found this

http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/dnarrstd.htm

 

and

http://www.which.co.uk/campaigns/food-and-health/staying-in-hospital/getting-information-in-hospital/

Edited November 2, 2010 by Night Owl
Links added

[frankieg]

Night Owl after wha tglitterlady said I looked it up DNAR this is what I found-

Quote "The law provides a clear hierarchy in terms of legal standing to make DNAR decisions:

a. The competent patient’s direct instructions.

b. The patient’s advance decision or proxy decision maker

if competence is lacking.

c. The senior clinician in charge of the patient’s care, acting

in the patient’s best interests, if there is not a legally valid

advance decision or proxy decision maker for a patient

lacking competence"

Her son didn't have an advance directive and she wasn't his decision maker. So the doctor could make a DNAR order on her son without any family input.

[Panthro]

Her son didn't have an advance directive and she wasn't his decision maker. So the doctor could make a DNAR order on her son without any family input.

 

You're quite correct, however it is best practise to involve the family in the decision making which is what NightOwl was getting at.

[frankieg]

Of course a family should be involved in the decision-but as glitterlady's experience shows, it doesn't always happen. I was just pointing out that doctors can legally make a patient a DNAR against the families wishes and there's not a thing they can do about it

Edited November 2, 2010 by frankieg
spelling

[lady-in-red]

Thank you all for the replies xx, so doctors consultants can just put a DNAR on anyone who they think is dieing, if my son was in that bad condition how is it he was flown to london he had a very long journey to get to london and the team from leicester took off the DNAR they said they would resusitate him so why couldnt the team at the local resus my son? i had a phone call today from pals, because i sent them an email asking for a patient safety policy, i want to know what their policy is when looking after our families, i also asked for a clinical incident reporting procedure, i want to know how they report a incident and did they report my sons incident, pals asked did i want this to go further i said yes she asked me to tell her what happened, so i did, she said the next one who deals with this will be intouch with me , i wont hold my breath, she said do we want a metting i said yes with the clinical director of ITU the one who admitted neglect to us plus that doctor who said he will take my sons care, and the nurse who was present that day i gave her all their names, i told her i have photos of my son in ITU with split lips cut on his nose a haematoma over his eyebrow, and i told her what the receiving hospital said about my sons hygene was appauling when he was brought to london, and that they also took photos of my son it wont look very good for our local but well if they are going to lie then im going to prove what they did im just glad i got photos of my sons face the day before then the next day with all his face looking like hed been in a car crash, and i will take this to the papers with my photos it will look very bad for our local because why shouldnt people see just what goes on in ITU in our hospital

[Panthro]

against the families wishes

 

That's a very different situation from not being consulted at all.

 

Regarding not being able to do anything, I'd disagree. Demanding a second opinion is one. Another is raising a court order. Both very difficult when emotions all over the place.

 

I do plan to read glitterladys thread so I'm not as ill-informed as I am at the minute.

[lady-in-red]

if you were in my situation that day tell me what would you have done??

[lady-in-red]

how could i get a second opinion as you said they CAN put a DNAR on a patient and also how do you raise a court order how long does that take my son could have stopped breathing anytime , and you actually think we had time to get a court order on a weekend, no there is no way you can stop a doctor putting a DNAR on one of your family

[Panthro]

if you were in my situation that day tell me what would you have done??

 

Probably the exact same as you. I'm not faulting you in anyway! You must have been distraught with (excuse the French), your head up your arse.

 

I will read your whole thread and comment (or indeed apologise) if need be.

[lady-in-red]

night owl, yes my son was on a ventilator with a tube down his throat

[lady-in-red]

hi panthro i know your not faulting me and i wasnt having a go at you i just meant what would you have done, there was no where to go no one to ask , who can help you when your in that situation how do you stop them doing these things i dissagreed with them i told no your not putting a dnar on him he said he can and he did and i had it taken off when he was transfered, what can a person do when in this situation ,

[lady-in-red]

we were lost no one could help us, it was horrible we couldnt stop it and i knew my son would pull through if they only waited and gave him a chance but they wouldnt wait, they just wanted to pull the plug on him because they had done something wrong they wanted to hide it,and thats why i wont let them get away with it because they lied to us

[Night Owl]

Glitterlady I can really feel the pain and anger in your last few posts.

I can only offer my deepest sympathy for you, your son and family. You have all passed along an appalling journey but you have all come out the other side, albeit emotionally bashed and bruised.

You have been left with your head spinning with questions that should have been answered along the way, but never the less still need answering. We on CAG will try and help you the best way we can.

Keep updating your thread and I will hold your hand to the end x

 

PS

There are lots of different ways of ventilating a patients airways.

Full invasive vetilation involves a tube down into the patients airway, either through the mouth, nose or directly through a trachaeostomy. The ventilator settings and the sedation will be set according to the physical condition of the lungs and the reasons for ventilation.

Non invasive ventilation involves the patient wearing a mask and the ventilator is set to provide positive pressure in the lungs to keep the lungs and airways from collapsing. Seen in use in patients with obstructive airways problems, such as sleep apnoea, where the patient stops breathing in their sleep due to floppy airways or obesity and excessive tissue around the neck blocking the airways during sleep.

[lady-in-red]

Thankyou night owl, you always say make me feel better when you leave me a psot, your such a caring lovely person, you also care what happens to the people you are looking after, and it must hurt you when you read these post and see what is happening in your profetion, the NHS used to be at the top of most peoples lists as helping sick people i was brought up to have respect for doctors, nurses just do what they are told but its the nurses that get the rants from patients & their families, not the doctors, there are not enough nurses, they are over worked underpaid for the job they are doing and i think most people would agree with me on that one, but consultants are like footballers overpaid and do nothing for their wages, but the nurses did not do my sons hygene properly i have read the only notes we have and even a nurse said when she took over her shift my sons mouth was dirty, and had blood round it, now if a nurse saw that why didnt she clean him before her shift ended so the next nurse would see he was clean, im talking about ITU here where patients are very critical and infections are rife, they imune systems are very low, and with a dirty mouth he could have got more infections through his mouth, he had his own nurse for the whole shift it was down to her to make sure he was cleaned he had a huge black hair stuck to his cut lip i asked a nurse to move this as he was intubated i didnt want to touch his mouth and make it bleed but she just ignored me and he went to london with the hair stuck in his mouth thats why the receiving hospital took photos and said his hygene was bad, the NHS need a good shake up, thankyou again night owl for your lovely post as always you cheer me up, thankyouxxxxxxxxxxxxx