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Hi,

 

Can anyone help?

 

I got out of my car in a drop off bay in a Council owned car park at my local leisure centre. I was dropping my 4 year old to his swimming lesson, which took no longer than 5 minutes. There was a sign saying not to get out of the car and double yellow lines on the curb side. However, I was running late and the car park is in a tiny rural town in Gloucestershire, so I decided to take the risk as everyone else does it all the time!

 

Anway, I got a PCN, but the code on it is Code 86 - "parked beyond the bay markings". I believe this code incorrect for the offence actually committed and in addition, that my circumstances are mitigating ( i.e. a 4yr old can't drop himself off to his own lesson in a public building, so i had no choice other than to get out of the car). Furthermore, the manager at the leisure centre saw me come in late to drop my child off and has written a letter confirming that I was dropping him off.

 

The Council have rejected my "dropping off" arguement and the manager's letter and have sent a Notice to Owner.

 

I think that the way forwards now is to challenge the ticket on the basis that the offence was not committed because the code is incorrect.

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

Silvie

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Hello and Welcome, Silvie.

 

I've moved this thread to the appropriate Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.


 
 

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Would you like to give us more of a clue - where were you, was it a road, or a pay and display car park, what are the road markings, what signs are there?

 

"Parked beyond bay markings" is usually used in a car park, I am just arguing that mine was inappropriate when I was in a road, on a double yellow. At a leisure centre, also in Gloucestershire :)

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Hi,

 

Thanks

 

I was at Thornbury Leisure Centre. You drive in off the main road and there is a oneway semi circle in front of the building with a designated "drop off" bay outside the front door that fits about 4 cars. There is a sign telling you it is a drop off zone and not to leave your car. There are double yellows on the curb side and a single white line on the road side. I was not stopped with any wheels over any of these lines.

 

Silvie

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The car park will probably require you to park in a marked parking bay which you didn't do as you parked in the dropping off zone so the contravention could be correct. You could have been done for parking in a restricted area of the car park which is a higher level fine so in some respects you are lucky.

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Hi,

 

Thanks.

 

I'll do a bit of legal research into this then defore digging myself a hole.

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This is the definition of Code 86:-

 

CONTRAVENTION CODE: 86

Parked beyond the bay markings

This code is used for contraventions when a vehicle is parked partly outside

the parking bay.

Civil Enforcement Officers will only issue a Penalty Charge Notice if at least

the whole of one wheel is outside the markings. The Civil Enforcement

Officers will take photographs to show how the vehicle was parked. This is an instant contravention and no observation period is required.

 

My vehicle was not parked with its wheels over the lines. Infact, it was parked wholly within them. Therefore, the ticket has been issued with the wrong penalty code and they are expecting me to pay a fine for something I didn't do. ok - yes admitedly I did commit a different offence, but as the paperwork is incorrect, I feel that I should at least try to "get off" on a technicality. And as I understand it, they can't re-issue another ticket for the correct offence.

 

Any advice gratefully received please.

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A good place to start is the traffic orders for Gloucestershire, they are good hunting:

 

Gloucestershire County Council - Parking Traffic Regualtion Orders

 

 

I had a look at a road map, and my "car park" is marked as a road on it, it has a name, my sat nav is telling me it is a road... so I am arguing wrong contraventions as well, I was on a yellow line :)

 

You have nothing to lose by arguing with them, I have always been given the reduced rate offer when they say no after the first appeal

 

Mind you, for the first one you are likely to get a "yes, we got the contravention wrong, but tough, you should pay anyway"... but I keep arguing, and have always won on the second appeal and have never yet paid one.:)

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This is the definition of Code 86:-

 

CONTRAVENTION CODE: 86

Parked beyond the bay markings

This code is used for contraventions when a vehicle is parked partly outside

the parking bay.

Civil Enforcement Officers will only issue a Penalty Charge Notice if at least

the whole of one wheel is outside the markings. The Civil Enforcement

Officers will take photographs to show how the vehicle was parked. This is an instant contravention and no observation period is required.

 

My vehicle was not parked with its wheels over the lines. Infact, it was parked wholly within them. Therefore, the ticket has been issued with the wrong penalty code and they are expecting me to pay a fine for something I didn't do. ok - yes admitedly I did commit a different offence, but as the paperwork is incorrect, I feel that I should at least try to "get off" on a technicality. And as I understand it, they can't re-issue another ticket for the correct offence.

 

Any advice gratefully received please.

 

You did not park in a parking bay you left your vehicle parked in the dropping off zone which is technically outside a parking bay.

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The Traffic Order may help. Pictures of the location would also help. I don't recall anyone using the Alighting Exemption for off-street but it has to worth throwing in - see http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/Wanambwa,%20exemptions,%20unloading%20alighting%20distinction%20edited%20version.pdf

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Hi,

 

Can anyone help?

 

I got out of my car in a drop off bay in a Council owned car park at my local leisure centre. I was dropping my 4 year old to his swimming lesson, which took no longer than 5 minutes. There was a sign saying not to get out of the car and double yellow lines on the curb side. However, I was running late and the car park is in a tiny rural town in Gloucestershire, so I decided to take the risk as everyone else does it all the time!

 

Anway, I got a PCN, but the code on it is Code 86 - "parked beyond the bay markings". I believe this code incorrect for the offence actually committed and in addition, that my circumstances are mitigating ( i.e. a 4yr old can't drop himself off to his own lesson in a public building, so i had no choice other than to get out of the car). Furthermore, the manager at the leisure centre saw me come in late to drop my child off and has written a letter confirming that I was dropping him off.

 

The Council have rejected my "dropping off" arguement and the manager's letter and have sent a Notice to Owner.

 

I think that the way forwards now is to challenge the ticket on the basis that the offence was not committed because the code is incorrect.

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

Silvie

 

I think you will find that that bit is irrelevant. A similar argument has been used by a mother dropping her 5 year old off at school when she stopped on the zig zag markings claiming she 'had no choice' because there was no where else to stop.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.


Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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I think you will find that that bit is irrelevant. A similar argument has been used by a mother dropping her 5 year old off at school when she stopped on the zig zag markings claiming she 'had no choice' because there was no where else to stop.

 

Double-yellows and zig-zags mean differnt things (on the street).

It all depends on what the double-yellows in the car park mean.

 

Personally I'd claim an alighting exemption and also that the car was no-where near a bay so the contravention alleged is wrong if any contravention actually took place.


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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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I agree. Plus the double yellows means nothing in the car park don't they. TSRGD does not apply there.

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Double-yellows and zig-zags mean differnt things (on the street).

It all depends on what the double-yellows in the car park mean.

 

Personally I'd claim an alighting exemption and also that the car was no-where near a bay so the contravention alleged is wrong if any contravention actually took place.

 

 

I was merely using this as an example to point out that the OPs argument of 'I had to get out of the car to accompany my 4 yr old son' will not be taken into consideration in an appeal I would of thought.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.


Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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Assisted alighting is an exemption. Wanambwa

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Assisted alighting is an exemption. Wanambwa

 

Not in a car park.

Unless the child actually manages to get to the changing rooms and get changed before going to his lswimming lesson which is remarkable for a 4yr old, I think you are probably stretching the truth as far as just dropping off goes.

There was a car park intended for those parking to use the pol so you don't really have a valid excuse.

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why not in a car park ? I don't follow "Unless the child actually manages to get to the changing rooms and get changed before going to his lswimming lesson which is remarkable for a 4yr old, I think you are probably stretching the truth as far as just dropping off goes."

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Hi,

 

 

I got out of my car in a drop off bay in a Council owned car park at my local leisure centre. I was dropping my 4 year old to his swimming lesson, which took no longer than 5 minutes. There was a sign saying not to get out of the car and double yellow lines on the curb side. However, I was running late and the car park is in a tiny rural town in Gloucestershire, so I decided to take the risk as everyone else does it all the time!

 

 

 

It looks like you answered your own question in at the start of this thread.

 

Sorry

 

You risked it , you failed at it, trying not to pay it.

 

 

 

 

 

dk


:welcome::rofl::welcome:

 

 

 

 

 

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:tea:

 

 

 

most of my knowledge is from the school of hard knocks

 

not based on any legal background

 

As quite a lot fellow caggers state seek Legal Advice

 

 

:ranger:

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why not in a car park ? I don't follow "Unless the child actually manages to get to the changing rooms and get changed before going to his lswimming lesson which is remarkable for a 4yr old, I think you are probably stretching the truth as far as just dropping off goes."

 

Because its a car park not a public highway. What is there not to follow? Dropping off is just that, is the OP suggesting the 4yr old entered the swimming pool changed into its swimming gear and made its way to the pool on its own or do you consider that all part of alighting a vehicle?

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I agree. Plus the double yellows means nothing in the car park don't they. TSRGD does not apply there.

 

That's an interesting point.

 

s.64 RTRA 1984 only gives permission for a prescribed traffic sign to be placed on a "road" by an authority. A double yellow line is a prescribed traffic sign but a car park is not a "Road".

 

The TSM Chp 1 states;

 

United Kingdom signs are crown

copyright and may not be reproduced

without permission. In no circumstances

will the Department permit the use of

traffic signs on advertisements at road

side locations. When prescribed traffic

signs are used illegally action should be

taken to secure their removal.

 

I see no harm in requiring the council to produce evidence that they have written permission to reproduce a crown copyrighted traffic sign in a location that does not form part of a road.

 

This may not get the PCN cancelled but may well embarrass the Council if it is found they have breached crown copyright.

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Hi,

However, I was running late and the car park is in a tiny rural town in Gloucestershire, so I decided to take the risk as everyone else does it all the time!

Thornbury is hardly a tiny rural town and is also the site for the main council offices for South Glos.

 

While South Glocs Council traffic department is reasonably good at getting the TRO and off street orders in place, (South Glos covers my part of Bristol as well) I would definitely go to the Council Offices and ask to see a copy of the Off-street parking order. SGC have been known to make mistakes in these documents.

 

I think you have definite grounds for an alighting exemption in spite of G&M's claims otherwise.


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This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

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I think you have definite grounds for an alighting exemption in spite of G&M's claims otherwise.

 

You can always use the taking my child swimming and couldn't be bothered to purchase a ticket exemption to! :rolleyes:

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If I am looking at the correct building on google then the bit you were on is a road, clearly marked as such on maps of the area, in which case the contravention is certainly the wrong one.

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Because its a car park not a public highway. What is there not to follow? Dropping off is just that, is the OP suggesting the 4yr old entered the swimming pool changed into its swimming gear and made its way to the pool on its own or do you consider that all part of alighting a vehicle?

 

The OP suggested no such thing. You have inferred it all on your own.

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Thinking back, when mine were small, my record for two kids under 5 was under a minute :) Admittedly, they had their costumes on under their clothes, so it was rip off two tshirts, grab their shoes and trousers, and tell them to leg it to the pool. Then a quick glance at the pool on the way out to check they really got there.

 

 

 

Mums taking the kids to a leisure centre are not loading, but neither are they dropping off according to the definition of this sign. They will be there for less than 5 minutes, even if they need to change the child, but they are expected to pay for the hours parking. Not only do they have to pay for the hours parking, but they have to take all the other children out of the car, unfold the buggy, put the baby in it, walk across from the car park, and then go back to the car park, strapping the kids back in the car, folding buggy, lifting into car.

 

Dropping off, for a mum with young children, surely has to include some time to actually hand the child over?

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