Egg Loan Agreement - enforceable?

[Tonster]

Hi All

 

Can you help with the enforceability of this agreement? I think because it is missing the amount of credit and total amount payable and only shows the original loan amount it would be unenforceable? But I would like a second or third opinion.

 

Thanks

 

Tonster

Egg Loan Agreement.pdf

[Bazooka Boo]

:lol: I have never seen an enforceable EGG agreement yet, and that is most certainly not one, have a read and see for yourself;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html#post1747471

[Hardupnotfedup]

Have you got copies of your statements for this loan, because around this time they were in the habit of adding unwanted or unasked for PPI in one lump sum on to the amount of loan.

I personally had £1100 added to a £7.5k loan, it might be worth checking this out.

Putting it as one premium at the beginning hides the fact that you are making monthly payments and paying interest on this.

[Tonster]

:lol: I have never seen an enforceable EGG agreement yet, and that is most certainly not one, have a read and see for yourself;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html#post1747471

 

Hi Bazooka

 

I thought as much and am pretty confident with all my credit card CCA's but just wanted a second opinion as it is a loan agreement (I have 2 such one's with Egg both identical) and am less familiar. I had read all of the stuff but still reasonably novice (but learning very quickly) so wanted another pair of eyes!!

 

Thanks

 

Tonster

[Tonster]

Can I clarify? It is because it is missing the amount of credit that makes it unenforceable isn't it? Is that a prescribed term?

[Pinky69]

The Principal amount is there but they must give you the total charge for credit. That is a prescribed term - part of the loan amount - and they have missed it out completely.

[Hardupnotfedup]

As I stated earlier but it seems to have been ignored, find an APR calculator put in the APR etc and see if you was making the correct monthly payments.

I have a loan from the same period and it wasn't until I SAR that it came to light that they had added PPI as a lump sum ,subsequently I was paying £21 a month more than I needed to.

This PPI was not indicated on the CCA, Check it out you maybe surprised, Just google APR calculator.

How many people just accept the repayment figure without question, I did,

[Tonster]

The Principal amount is there but they must give you the total charge for credit. That is a prescribed term - part of the loan amount - and they have missed it out completely.

 

 

I thought so, thank you. I have been trying to get this point across on another thread for someone else but another cagger (possibly troll from other threads I have read) keeps arguing against this, perhaps take a look?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/256871-egg-laon-agreement-compliant.html

[Tonster]

As I stated earlier but it seems to have been ignored, find an APR calculator put in the APR etc and see if you was making the correct monthly payments.

I have a loan from the same period and it wasn't until I SAR that it came to light that they had added PPI as a lump sum ,subsequently I was paying £21 a month more than I needed to.

This PPI was not indicated on the CCA, Check it out you maybe surprised, Just google APR calculator.

How many people just accept the repayment figure without question, I did,

 

 

Hi Hardup

 

Not ignored, just not managed to get round to it yet, will do later

 

Cheers

 

Tonster

[Bazooka Boo]

Link please tonster..

[Tonster]

Link please tonster..

 

That was quick, it's there now, I realised straight away that I forgot the link and you still beat me to it!

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes he is a troll, don't entertain him.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/265918-devils-advocacy.html#post3010150

[Tonster]

Yes, that was the thread I had spotted. But although I have learnt a lot over the last 12 months I am still wary on giving advice on other threads as I am still learning. I have about 12 creditors in total all at various stages (mainly now at the 'send me letter after letter that I file and ignore stage) and I am muddling through with advice from here and reading thread after thread but when your advice is instantly opposed it knocks you a bit

 

Cheers

[Tonster]

Hi All

 

So this has been going back and forward now for some time and is with Drydens lawyers now. Their latest letter states:

'Contrary to the assertion in your letter, the total charge for credit (by which you presumably mean the total amount of interest intended to be charged) is not a prescribed term within the meaning of the consumer credit (Agreements) regulations 1983. The prescribed term to do with the 'amount of credit' relates to the amount advanced, which is clearly stated on the agreement in compliance with the regulations. No separate entry is needed for the total amount of interest payable; this information is discernible from the term and monthly amount of the repayments'. See copy of loan agreement further up the thread.

 

Any advice on this as I am a bit unsure with loan agreements? I have read through the other threads but as it is now with solicitors I want to be quite precise.

 

Thanks

 

Tonster

[nicklea]

What they say in that letter is quite correct and what the so-called troll on the other thread said is quite correct as well. The amount of credit is how much of the loan you get in your bank account. It is NOT the total amount that you have to repay.

 

The advice given earlier on the other thread by Et Contra Pacem Regis is correct.

 

Unfortunately, this often happens - calling people a troll and other things - when people give correct advice that is not welcome it can be shouted down by people who wish to think otherwise.

[Bazooka Boo]

Drydens should have been sent this:http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?425-Letter-to-solicitors-threatening-legal-action-in-default-of-agreement-request

 

The agreement is missing a prescribed term, only a Judge can make it enforceable.

Have you had a read of what constitutes an enforceable and unenforceable agreement?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?162851-Consumer-Credit-Agreements-a-guide-to-enforceability

[Tonster]

Yes, I have read through it many times but I am still unclear (and I don't want to go into battle in court with differing opinions). On credit card agreements I am crystal clear (having been reading up on this and in several battles for 2 years +) but on loan agreements I am not so clear, this is the only one I have and even today I now have two completely differing opinions from Bazooka Boo and Nicklea on whether the charge for credit (not the total loan amount including the credit charge) needs to be shown separately.

 

Confused!!!!! Can you clarify?

[Bazooka Boo]

Well some members have a tendency to drop in occasionaly and give misleading advice, or try to muddy the waters, so it is ultimately down to you if you wish to follow the advice given, and of course your own findings, I still stand by what I said, IMO it is not enforceable and as Pinky said it is missing a prescribed term.

 

Have a look at some other EGG threads, and get a general consensus off those, although I am sure you have been doing this..

 

Here is a copy of another unenforceable Egg agreement, which is exactly the same as yours:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?162851-Consumer-Credit-Agreements-a-guide-to-enforceability&p=1894837&viewfull=1#post1894837

[Tonster]

Hi BB

 

I have read that thread and there is an Egg agreement in there but it's not the same as mine. On that one it is declared unenforecable as there is PPI on the loan but they haven't shown separate repayment terms for the two agreements. I think this comes under section 18. I don't have PPI on mine so this doesn't apply. I guess the confusion is around the prescribed term 'amount of credit'. Drydens are claiming this is the total amount that was advanced (loan + credit) but I guess this needs to be shown separately according to the regs?

[nicklea]

Drydens should have been sent this:http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?425-Letter-to-solicitors-threatening-legal-action-in-default-of-agreement-request

 

The agreement is missing a prescribed term, only a Judge can make it enforceable.

Have you had a read of what constitutes an enforceable and unenforceable agreement?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?162851-Consumer-Credit-Agreements-a-guide-to-enforceability

 

I am quite aware of what prescribed terms are required under the 1983 Regs in order to make a pre 2007 agreement enforceable.

 

The whole point is that a judge CAN enforce this agreement - in fact you say as much in the quote above. The defence only works when one of the prescibed terms is missing and the agreement was signed before 6th April 2007 as s127(3) then comes into play and the judge CANNOT enforce the agreement regardless of whether he would like to or not. The only prescribed term for a loan under the 1983 regs is the amount of credit.

 

You made reference to another thread and I would suggest that you have another read of that thread, especially post #4 where steven4064 agrees with what I am saying here.

 

 

Well some members have a tendency to drop in occasionaly and give misleading advice, or try to muddy the waters

 

Not too sure if you're referring to me or someone else. However, if you are, then I will try to explain things in a little bit more detail.

 

 

From pinky69

The Principal amount is there but they must give you the total charge for credit. That is a prescribed term - part of the loan amount - and they have missed it out completely.

 

What he says is correct. However, this only makes it improperly executed - NOT necessarily unenforceable. It CAN be enforced if all of the prescribed terms from Schedule 6 of the 1983 regs are present. There are prescribed terms from Schedules 1 to 5 that , the absence of which, mean it is not properly executed and so it needs an order from the court to be enforced. It is these prescribed terms from Schedules 1-5 that Pinky is refering to.

 

Perhaps the confusion comes about as the terms in Schedule 6 are also refered to as Prescribed Terms but it is only the lack of the Schedule 6 terms that would make the agreement unenforceable under s127(3)

 

bazooka boo

I still stand by what I said, IMO it is not enforceable and as Pinky said it is missing a prescribed term.

 

I would suggest that your advice here is misleading, especially given that later on you say that it is enfocreable:-

 

only a Judge can make it enforceable.

[Tonster]

Ok, deep breath, does section 127(3) not apply in this case? It was signed in 2004. Is the total charge for credit not a schedule 6 term then? What is the difference between section 77 and 1983 regs then?

 

Head hurts, more research for me tonight....I want to be clear on this point as I don't want to go into battle on some point where I'm not clear and could lose.

 

Cheers

[Tonster]

So this is schedule 6 of the 1983 regs.

 

SCHEDULE 6

PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OFSECTIONS 61(1)(A)AND127(3)OF THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

Regulation 6(1)

2. Agreements for fixed-sum credit not falling

within paragraph 1.

A term stating the amount of the credit.

 

So, my understanding is that as above in schedule 6 that a term stating the amount of the credit should be present and isn't in my agreement. As it isn't there I understand that section 127(3) applies as this was an agreement from 2004?

 

Thoughts?

[nicklea]

The amount of credit IS on your agreement. The amount of credit is the amount of credit that you are given - how much money they put into your bank account when you take out the loan.

 

The amount of interest you have to pay is NOT the amount of credit

[Tonster]

Ah, ok I think I am getting it. I thought the amount of credit was the term to show the charge for credit (i.e. how much it costs you, not just the loan amount + interest added together which is what is shown as the principal amount), if this isn't stated separately how are you supposed to know how much it is costing you?

[Bazooka Boo]

The amount of credit IS on your agreement. The amount of credit is the amount of credit that you are given - how much money they put into your bank account when you take out the loan.

The amount of interest you have to pay is NOT the amount of credit

 

Yes I agree with that, one other small point though is where are the T&C's to this agreement? Did they send you those?

 

Some light reading....http://www.johnpughschambers.co.uk/Consumer_Credit_%28Agreements%29_Regs_1983.pdf