HSBC - bank charges - court papers received

[MikeBigg]

I have an over draft with HSBC - the limit was £2000 and it is currently running at about £2600.

 

I'm not using the account anymore - I switched banks - and haven't paid anything in for some months.

 

I'm of the opinion that the size of the overdraft is not dissimilar to the amount of charges that HSBC applied on my account.

 

How should I proceed with this? Should I be paying a little in each month to show willing or should I leave well alone.

 

What I'd really like from HSBC is a breakdown of all charged placed on the account, but I guess that won't be forthcoming, which leaves the SAR route. However that will return a lot of sheets of paper that I will have to go through.

 

You advice greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[djwigster]

Do you have on-line banking set up? This gives access to the last 6 years worth of statements on most accounts so would give you a more accurate idea of the charges.

[MikeBigg]

Thanks, djwigster,

 

I don't have online banking with HSBC setup.

 

Is 6 years the limit? I've read about claims going back to 1997.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

[MikeBigg]

Yesterday, HSBC called me asked to speak to Michael Bigg. I said "speaking" and they went immediately into discussing details of my account including amounts I owed etc.

 

I pulled them up on this and was told that this has been normal procedure for several months.

 

I usually use the security questions as a means of not talking to them.

 

It could have been anyone answering the phone. What they're doing is relying on the honesty of people to not say they are me. That's fine for the honest ones, but the dishonest ones will just lie. So its no security at all.

 

What are the rules and regulations in this regard?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[comebackjimmy]

To start with don't talk to creditors on the phone.

 

Insist on written comms only otherwise they will bully you into commitments you cannot meet.

 

They should take you through security or risk speaking to the wrong person. However, I would not give security details to anyone who called me. I view the security procedure as being something they go through when I call them to prove it is me.

[MikeBigg]

Thanks, CBJ, I don't usually talk to them on the phone.

 

You say "they should . . ."

 

Is this a legal requiremnt, standards laid down by an official body, best practice, company policy or what?

 

If they don't take me through security questions, who is the right person to complain to about it?

 

Regards,

 

Mike

[johnnymitch]

I would say the Information Commissioner Mike, for breach of the Data Protection Act ..... ....

 

sorry ...this is a better link I think :

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints.aspx

[MikeBigg]

Well, I hoped I would be able to avoid this.

 

I have an overdraft with HSBC. I exceeded the overdraft limit and started to get charges applied to my account. Currently the balance is about £2500. The agreed limit was £2000. Charges have totalled about £3200.

 

So, the whole outstanding balanced is made up of charges!

 

I was hoping the court case would help, but it didn't. I'm in the middle of drafting a letter to the ombudsman, but a claim form from Northampton arrived on my door step yesterday, signed by DG solicitors.

 

Its a joint account, so the lovely Mrs Bigg is also named as defendant - I could do without her being involved with all this?

 

What options are open to me now?

 

Is it too late for the ombudsman to be involved? Is it too late to negotiate a monthly amount with DG without a ccj being involved?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Mike

[MikeBigg]

Anyone?

 

What are the options available to me at this time?

 

To be honest I'm thinking I may just as well start paying something - it'll be cheaper in the long run!

 

Regards,

 

Mike

[MARTIN3030]

Thread moved here Mike as requested.

Have you got some more background info for this ?

[MARTIN3030]

Ok have merged a couple.

[MikeBigg]

Hmm.

 

I'm thinking I'll just pay up - sticks in the throat, though - thieving ba*st*rds!

 

So, is it possible at this stage to pay up while still leaving me room to make a claim at a later date?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[MikeBigg]

Anyone care to advise on my last question?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Mike

[Ganymede]

I have an over draft with HSBC - the limit was £2000 and it is currently running at about £2600.

 

I'm not using the account anymore - I switched banks - and haven't paid anything in for some months.

 

I'm of the opinion that the size of the overdraft is not dissimilar to the amount of charges that HSBC applied on my account.

 

How should I proceed with this? Should I be paying a little in each month to show willing or should I leave well alone.

 

What I'd really like from HSBC is a breakdown of all charged placed on the account, but I guess that won't be forthcoming, which leaves the SAR route. However that will return a lot of sheets of paper that I will have to go through.

 

You advice greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

 

 

 

Why did you stop paying?

[MikeBigg]

I stopped paying because I couldn't afford to pay anymore. This isn't the only debt I have - at one point my salary was basically paying the minimum payments on several credit cards all of them were calling at all hours of the day putting me under immense pressure. HSBC cancelled all my standing orders etc.

 

I changed banks so my salary was paid elsewhere and I managed to keep the credit cards at bay with advice gleaned from here.

 

I was hoping for better from the court case, but it seemed to go the wrong way and I again got despondent and was unable to deal with things. Sigh. (I've always considered myself to be a strong person, but this seems to bring me down quite easily).

 

Mostly, I stopped paying as I don't think the charges applied to my account should stand - £3000+ in charges against a £2500 overdraft. The whole debt is made up of charges.

 

In the claim for HSBC state that the overdraft agreement said they could ask for the whole amount back. They did. I didn't pay. So they are taking me to court.

 

As I see it now, I have lost the opportunity to negotiate anything with HSBC. So I can either:

 

1) Submit and pay up (if I had the money available). I can probably get the money, so this seems like the least risky, but most expensive option. At least in the short term.

 

2) Submit and ask the court to determine a repayment plan. Is this wise? Will it be affordable?

 

3) Submit a defence based on some of the writings here. This seems to be risky. Not only may I lose the case, but they'll start adding their costs onto my account which I'll have to pay off at some point.

 

Have I got the gist of it? Can I avoid getting a CCJ now I've got to this point? My credit history is completely trashed, I'm not sure having a CCJ will make much difference.

 

Thanks for your help with this.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

[johnnymitch]

I stopped paying because I couldn't afford to pay anymore. This isn't the only debt I have - at one point my salary was basically paying the minimum payments on several credit cards all of them were calling at all hours of the day putting me under immense pressure. HSBC cancelled all my standing orders etc.

 

I changed banks so my salary was paid elsewhere and I managed to keep the credit cards at bay with advice gleaned from here.

 

Well done, good to have this feedback, Mike....

I was hoping for better from the court case, but it seemed to go the wrong way and I again got despondent and was unable to deal with things. Sigh. (I've always considered myself to be a strong person, but this seems to bring me down quite easily).

It only went the wrong way because the OFT used too narrow a criteria... and the Supreme Court recognised that I think , by leaving the door open to claim under another Regulation...... but we're still waiting to see the result of a challenge on this (see Sheriff puts Bank of Scotland etc etc ......)

 

Mostly, I stopped paying as I don't think the charges applied to my account should stand - £3000+ in charges against a £2500 overdraft. The whole debt is made up of charges.

Then I'd say you have a good case ......there used to be a sticky somewhere about this ............ but I can't find it at the moment ....this one may help a bit ..

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/149488-have-you-been-defaulted.html

 

the claim for HSBC state that the overdraft agreement said they could ask for the whole amount back. They did. I didn't pay. So they are taking me to court.

 

As I see it now, I have lost the opportunity to negotiate anything with HSBC. So I can either:

 

1) Submit and pay up (if I had the money available). I can probably get the money, so this seems like the least risky, but most expensive option. At least in the short term.

That would seem to me like putting yourself in another debt to pay them their ill-gotten gains ....

 

2) Submit and ask the court to determine a repayment plan. Is this wise? Will it be affordable?

Courts are usually very generous when it comes to deciding how much people can afford from their I & E..... so might be worth considering ....

 

3) Submit a defence based on some of the writings here. This seems to be risky. Not only may I lose the case, but they'll start adding their costs onto my account which I'll have to pay off at some point.

No doubt that at the moment this is the riskiest one of the 3. However ,if it's kept at Small Claims level .....there are no costs added .....

 

Have I got the gist of it? Can I avoid getting a CCJ now I've got to this point? My credit history is completely trashed, I'm not sure having a CCJ will make much difference.

Basically , it's got to be your choice Mike ..... but I hope I've given you a broader view of the options ..... and if you do have to go to court, it may be that the time-scale will allow for extra info to be available about cases which are pending at the moment .... so you can change tack to suit .....

Thanks for your help with this.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

 

Hopefully , someone else will come in with more , I only say it as I see it .... but there may be other options to be considered

[MikeBigg]

Please can someone point me in the right direction as to what to put on the forms I return?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Mike

[johnnymitch]

What forms are we talking about here Mike ?

 

Have HSBC given you copies of all documents they intend to rely on in court Mike ..... together with a detailed breakdown of what their claim consists of ....

 

Without that you cannot form a reasonable defence ...btw did you send a SAR ?

[MikeBigg]

I'm talking about the court forms that came through to me ...

 

Its called a response pack. (This is all so alien to me - where to begin?)

 

It is scanned in the next post.

 

OK - There is an acknowledgement of service form (N9CPC) on which I can:

 

1) I intend to defend all of this claim

2) I intend to defend part of this claim

3) I intend to contest jurisdiction

 

I would like to defend the whole claim.

 

I'd like to do that with a court nearer me.

 

So, do I just tick boxes 1 and 3 and sign at this time?

 

The send of SAR? Will all the details of the claim come from HSBC without me asking? I do I have to get them to send them to me?

 

On the claim form (N1CPC) my with and I are named as defendants. It was a join account. She received the same paperwork from the court as I did. Does she have to fill in her own copy, or is it ok for just one defendant to respond?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[MikeBigg]

Here is the Response Pack / acknowledgement of service:

 

 

Here is their POC:

 

Edited July 11, 2010 by MikeBigg
changing picture sizes

[MikeBigg]

OK - so I've prepared the SAR and CCA and will put them in the post tomorrow.

 

I really need to send the acknowledgement of service and my defence, but I'm unsure what to write.

 

At this stage is it ok to simply state that I dispute the debt as it is made up entirely of charges and then update with full details later?

 

Or must I fill in the whole lot now?

 

If this is not the place to be asking these questions, please can you point me to the right place.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mike

[MikeBigg]

Further to this - and after some reading and some considerable anxiety - I will simply put in the Defence box:

 

1) I dispute the whole amount as it is composed completely of charges.

 

2) I have requested information from HSBC, but until the information is received from HSBC I am embarrassed to be unable to submit a defence at this time. In the event the information requested is provided to you, then you reserve the right to answer more fully.

 

Will this do - or do I need to do more?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Docman]

Hi Mike

 

At this stage you should just return the 'acknowledgment of service' form- online if you can. You then have 14 more days to submit a defence.

 

You should note that a SAR [subject Access Request] is a notice under the Data Protection Act requesting documents which hold personal information about you. The bank (or Data Controller as it is termed) has 40 days to produce documents once you have paid a £10 fee. A SAR is OK when you start out trying to reclaim bank charges but pretty useless once the bank has issued a claim against you - it takes too long.

 

Also a request under the Consumer Credit Act (Ss77/78) isn't much use once the claim is rolling and doesn't apply to overdrafts. Only parts of the Act apply to overdrafts.

 

Instead you should use the courts rules to get what you want. The rules (Civil Procedure Rules or CPR) allow you to demand copies of documents and seek information but you have to be careful which one to use. Have a look at the threads relating to CPR 31.14 or CPR 18 to see which one is best. Personally I would ask for copies of any overdraft letter and the statements (up to the last 6 years) that make up the overdraft. If you can calculate the amount of unlawful bank charges, I would then make a counter claim (using CPR 20) to claim them all back.

 

HSBC have 28 days in which to respond but rarely do unless prodded. The case should then be allocated to your local court for you to defend.

[MikeBigg]

Thank you DocMan - much appreciated.

 

The SAR and CCA requests went in the post today - it'll be interesting to see what they produce anyway.

 

I have just done the "AOS" online. I thought I had to submit a basic defence at this time, too, but from what you have said that is not the case.

 

Now the work begins.

 

HSBC have previously sent a letter detailing the charges they have applied to the account.

 

You say you would ask for a copy of any overdraft letter. Do you mean a letter that they may have written when I first applied for an overdraft?

 

What am I looking for here?

 

I'll read up on the CPR information and see what I understand.

 

I know I've messed this up by not staying on top of things - if I was able to do that I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in. Thanks to the people who have previously advised and apologies where I haven't followed through on the advice.

 

Thanks again DocMan.

 

Mike

 

Thanks again

[Docman]

The letter is the one that the bank would normally have issued confirming the amount of the overdraft, the period of the overdraft and the interest to be charged. It may also refer to other terms and conditions. Sometimes the letter is renewed annually.