advice needed regarding Disciplinary action and suspension

[andyford2000]

well I emailed the appeal through on sunday and havent heard anything back from them.

[andyford2000]

very quick question, i have my appeal hearing tomorrow.

 

is the desinated note taker allowed to question me ????? this was done at the disciplinary hearing

[andyford2000]

another thing I have just noticed, in the investogatory meeting they took a sepearte statement from my safety man. in that he stated that he believed that I fastened a rope around the chimney and secured myself to it. now this statement has never been produce, surely I should have that as part of the evidence

[honeybee13]

Hello Andy. Firstly, fingers crossed for you tomorrow.

 

Yes, I think you should have seen that statement. Without reading your thread right now, is it something you requested from them? I imagine the statement would strengthen your case?

 

I'll see what I can find about note-takers speaking, but it's not what the title suggests, is it? Do you mean yours or their note-taker please?

 

HB

[andyford2000]

I have only just thought about it, after speaking to the other engineer today. I would of thought they should of supplied that to me as a matter of course. It would seem that in my opinion they wanted me to fail, if you know what I mean.

 

regards the note taker, that is what he was introduced as, and he asked me a quite a few questions during the dissaplinary

[honeybee13]

Andy, I'm sorry, I don't know the answers and we don't seem to have anyone around who does at the moment. Have you checked out the directgov and ACAS websites for procedures that should be followed for your sort of case?

 

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow, please let us know how it goes. And in the meantime, I hope someone comes along who has some answers for you.

 

My best, HB x

[andyford2000]

really need to know this asap, anyone please

[andyford2000]

bump please, need this info urgently, off to the appeal in an hour

[andyford2000]

well I had my appeal hearing last tuesday, no decision made at the hearing. they said they needed to investigate it further and would notify me in writing, well its been over a week and nothing

[honeybee13]

Poor you, Andy. This is really dragging out, isn't it? Are you managing to find ways of filling in your time?

 

My best, HB

[R&J]

When were you originally dismissed on, remember that there are strict time limits from this date if you want to go in the Employment Tribunal.

[bartymuv]

hi andy, can you tell us if you were informed that you could bring a colleague or trade union representative with you to either your disciplinary or appeal hearing?

if they didnt, it could be relevant if you get to a tribunal.

 

your question regarding scribes (noteteakers) asking questions, usually (as i understand) you would be introduced to the investigating panel and each persons position explained.

scribes can ask questions, with the chairs permission. obviously he wouldn't object because the scribe was one of his 'team'.

 

i'm not a expert in industrial law, just a tu rep who has attended quite a few investigating and disciplinary hearings and all for one company. also none of my hearings have ever ended up at a tribunal for unfair dissmissal, so i cant comment on those proceedings.

 

i think someone has already mentioned that even if your company didnt follow their disciplinary proceedure, it doesn't mean you will get your job back.

 

i wish you luck.

 

bartymuv.

[andyford2000]

update, i had a letter dated the 12th August 2010,

 

informing that a decision still hadnt been made as investigations are still on going, due mainly to the absebce, by annual leave, of the main witnesses in response to your points raised and the information needed to make an informed opinion.

 

as soon as everyone is back in business, i do not forsee any further delay to providing an outcome. I anticipate this outcome to be no later than two weeks from date of this letter.

 

signed on behalf of regional manager.

[andyford2000]

well its now the 2nd September and i havent heard anything since the letter dated 12th August, surely it cannot take this long to investigate. why do i get the feeling they are dragging this out until the 3months has passed before I can progress to tribunal

[honeybee13]

Hi Andy, how frustrating for you. They don't seem to be acting in a reasonable time at all. I would like other caggers to comment, but I don't think you should allow the 3 months to run out. I think I'm right in saying that you can file for an ET while this is going on.

 

Have you looked at the Tribunals Service website for information?

 

My best, HB

[mariefab]

It's possible that they may be delaying until you're out of time to make a Tribunal claim.

As honeybee correctly says, you can submit a claim while this is going on. If you decide to do this, the last date on which you can file a claim would be 27th September.

Here's the form:

 

http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/Documents/FormsGuidance/newforms/ET1.pdf

[andyford2000]

right, I am in the process of filing in the ET1 to send out tomorrow.

 

I have waited for a response from the company regards my appeal and havent heard a dickie bird.

 

Really didnt want to do this bit, but guess i have no choice now.

 

i need some help with the form, the background of details.

 

Do start from when I was called to the office for a meeting without prior notice then build on from there.

 

would i be right in thinking it is an unfair dismissal because they havent followed the correct procedures.

[mariefab]

Just tick the box at 5.1*a.

Tell your story at 5.2*. If you need more space there are blank pages at 8, 9 & 10.

Don't forget to tick the check box at the bottom of section 11.

 

By all means mention the procedural failures, but your best bet is to try to show that your employer didn't really consider that what you did was gross misconduct so yyour dismissal was too harsh.

After all, if they are so hot on health and safety issues why weren't you suspended when this first came to light, why wasn't your safety man disciplined and why didn't they sack others for similar offences. These are the kind of things you should be trying to highlight if this gets to a hearing.

So, when you tell your story you need to lay the groundwork there.

 

Below you'll find a rough and ready copy and paste job of what I think are the relevant bits of your posts on this thread.

You could tidy it up and base your story on this.

 

First informed on 24th June at surprise investigatory meeting.

Suspended that night.

 

i was suspended for a breach of health and safety, which i have admitted. on the day inquestion I was working with a more experienced engineer who hasnt been suspended.

 

basically we work as a 2 man team, an operator and a safety man. I was working on a pitched roof without the full H & S equipment in use. I left my ladders and walked up the roof before throwing a rope around the chimney and attaching myself to said rope. I have to admit it was my first time doing this job as a 2 man tean. I did my training in I think feb / march time this event occured in the second week of may.

 

when working on heights job types, we work as a 2 man team. The second man that day was my so called safety man. He hasnt been disciplined and is currently still working.

 

I did what we call a special heights course on the 21st and 22nd of January this year and didnt actually carry out my first job requiring the skills until May 13th.

 

Since the incident, I have work various other days working at heights as a 2 man team.

they have still had me work in a heights team for 2 days in the last week.

 

Also, I was then sent on a training course within the last month, which was a kind of refresher and new procedures.

They found out after my manager had to visit the customer regarding a damage claim caused by my collegue.

 

 

I have just been phoned by my HR department in Warrington wanting to know why I havent attended a meeting this morning at 10am. I explained that I have had no communication with them at all since the investigatory meeting last thursday. I was informed that a letter was sent out to my home address on the 24th (thursday), which i have never received. He then stated that I could go to Warrington today read the letter and if I was happy they would continue with the meeting.

 

right been to Warrington for my meeting, it was a disciplinary after all, and the outcome was dismissal.

 

they also produce a document that was descibed as Revisions to the disciplinary procedures regarding health and safety related disciplinaries, september 2009.

 

in that there is a section which reads "where an employee is found to have carried out work on a roof top without the appropriate equipment and/ or processes being followed, the likely outcome will be dismissal.

 

now i can honestly say that i have never ever seen that update until today.

 

i do know of other people who have not been sacked for similair offences.

 

it would appear that they kept me working whilst there was a shortage of engineers and a high work load.

 

incidently the original invite to a dissaplinary came this, post mark dated 29th June, the following day I was dissemed. it didnt have all the evidence in that they produced at the hearing

 

Appeal 27th July

 

update, i had a letter dated the 12th August 2010,

informing that a decision still hadnt been made as investigations are still on going, due mainly to the absebce, by annual leave, of the main witnesses in response to your points raised and the information needed to make an informed opinion.

as soon as everyone is back in business, i do not forsee any further delay to providing an outcome. I anticipate this outcome to be no later than two weeks from date of this letter.

signed on behalf of regional manager.

 

No further response to date.

[mariefab]

One last thought, do you have a copy of your employers disciplinary procedures?

If you do, check to see whether they followed their own rules and if they didn't point this out.

[andyford2000]

please can someone read over this and give me their views, this is what I am planing on putting on my ET1 for reasons.

 

23 June 2010

I received the following text message from my manager;

Manager 2010-06-23 19:32:08

Hi Andy, I've been trying to call you, please can you be at AVC Warrington tomorrow morning at 0900, I'm not going to be on my phone for a while so can you please text me to confirm you have received this and will be attending, thanks

I immediately tried calling him back to enquire as to reason why I was required to be there and what it concerned. I got no answer and tried calling him periodically and texting for the next hour or so, with no reply being received in return.

24th June 2010

I arrived at our regional office at about 8.45 this morning to be informed that I was there for an investigatory meeting in relationship to breach of health and safety. I admitted that the allegation was right, that I ascended a pitched roof without the correct equipment and procedures in place.

At the end I was informed that this matter may involve Disciplinary action.

 

I left the meeting and return home.

 

As I work from home, we are sent our work down for the following electronically onto out PDA's. The work can arrived anytime from 4pm up until midnight, but usually by 7pm. I received no work for tomorrow and tried contacting my manager via text message and phone; again he didn’t reply or answer my calls.

 

I then proceeded to contact another field manager via text message, asking where my work was and if they were running late in allocating jobs. He phoned me back with 10 minutes and informed me that "He was the bearer of bad news, I was suspended pending further investigation", I hadn’t been informed at the end of my meeting that I was to be suspended and no one had called me to inform this was the case until, I questioned why I hadn’t any work for tomorrow.

I believe that they should have informed me, by the end of that investigatory meeting of my suspension and this should have been in the minutes. They should also have then sent a letter stating the reasons for that suspension.

28th June 2010

I received a phone call from xxxxxxxxxx from my HR Department in Warrington at 10.45am enquiring to know why I hadn’t attended a meeting this morning at 10am. I explained that I have had no communication with them at all since the investigatory meeting last Thursday 24th June. I was informed that a letter was sent out to my home address on the 24th (Thursday), which I have never received. He then stated that I could go to Warrington today read the letter and if I was happy they would continue with the meeting.

I attend our office in Warrington around 1.30pm. I was handed a letter and other documentation in relationship to the allegation and also stating I was there for a disciplinary hearing.

During the meeting I had stated that I had been trained in this kind of work on the 21st and 22nd January 2010. On the 13th May, some 4months later I was given my very first heights installation being paired up with another more experienced engineer who had been doing this type of work for many months. I also mentioned that I wasn’t happy carrying out this kind of work and was pressurized into it by manager I was only given my health and safety equipment 10minutes prior to the job. I said that it was a one off mistake and that it hadn’t happened again since.

The more experienced engineer who was working with me on this day has at no time been disciplined regarding this and is still working for the company.

Following the disciplinary hearing I was informed that I was being dismissed for gross misconduct.

At no time was I informed that I could have adjourned the meeting for another time enabling myself to prepare and gather my own evidence in relationship to the allegation.

30th June 2010

Dismissal letter received stating reasons for dismissal.

1st July 2010

I received the letter inviting me to attend a disciplinary hearing on the 28th June 2010 at 10am. The letter was dated the 24th June 2010 and was clearly sent out on the 29th June 2010 as clearly marked by the franked postmark, 24hours after I had been dismissed. The documentation supplied with this letter was missing various documents that were presented to me just prior to the hearing. This being the case, I certainly wouldn’t have been prepared correctly for the hearing should the letter of arrived before the hearing.

4th July 2010

Formal Notice to Appeal Letter sent to xxxxxx.

27th July 2010

Appeal was heard.

I read out the following statement and left them with a copy;

The reason I presented and demonstrated a clear understanding of the training undertaken in relationship to carrying out my work and understanding the techniques and practices required to undertake this nature of work is two fold. First of all I have re-read the training material supplied when I attended the SIT training course in Warrington on 21st and 22nd January 2010. Secondly I attended a Blue Sky Course at Knaresborough on the 15th June 2010, which showed us and demonstrated the techniques required to carry out pitched roof work.

I have to state that I didn’t deliberately disregard company policy and procedures. If I had known prior to the incident occurring on the 13th May 2010 that my actions would result in myself being dismissed for gross misconduct then I certainly wouldn’t have proceeded with the job.

Prior to my disciplinary hearing on the 28th June 2010, I was presented with a bundle of information relevant to this case. In said bundle was a document “Revisions to the disciplinary Procedures Regarding Health and Safety Related Disciplinaries September 2009.”

Stating that;

Where an employee is found to have carried out work on a roof top without the appropriate equipment and/or processes being followed, the like outcome would be a dismissal.

I categorically deny ever seeing or being issued with the document in question. Further more if I had ever received this document / update, surely there must be a signed receipt to confirm that I have received it and understood it and the consequences of failing to following this HEALTH AND SAFETY RELATED document. I have also looked through the AVC ENGINEER HEALTH & SAFETY INFORMATION PACK and again this document is not there and certainly isn’t covered in the disciplinary procedures section.

If I was deemed to be a risk to myself and others, then the company has a duty of care to make sure that I am not putting myself and others at risk. Then why was I allowed to continue working without being suspended. I was still working on heights routes, on the 15th May, 14th & 19th July

As stated in original meeting this was indeed my first heights installation since completing my training some four months earlier. I have also stated before that I was unhappy to carry out this type of work and expressed my concerns to Paul Rowlands at the time. I was informed that all engineers now had to do this and basically to get on with it.

No decision was made as they stated that they would need to further investigate issues raised at the hearing.

12th August 2010

I received a letter stating the following.

Informing me that a decision still hadn’t been made as investigations are still on going, due mainly to the absence, by annual leave, of the main witnesses in response to your points raised and the information needed to make an informed opinion.

 

as soon as everyone is back in business, I do not foresee any further delay to providing an outcome. I anticipate this outcome to be no later than two weeks from date of this letter.

 

signed on behalf of regional manager.

26th September

As of today, I haven’t received any outcome from the appeal hearing. Furthermore I haven’t been sent the typed up minutes for the appeal hearing. I am under the impression that the company are hoping that I may of moved on from this

[andyford2000]

do i need to put anything on this about the pressure i was put under to complete work, inevitably leading to mistakes being made.

 

this needs to be submitted tonight

 

urgent help pretty please

[andyford2000]

bump please

[andyford2000]

anyone please, this has to be filed today

[mariefab]

Andy

 

On what date did this happen?

They found out after my manager had to visit the customer regarding a damage claim caused by my collegue

[andyford2000]

i am not sure to be exact, i think it was with a few days of the event. the 13th may was the day the job happened. the customer raised a damage claim the same day as my collegue had drilled 3 holes through their hard wood window frame