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Welcome Credit Agreement - Manipulated?!?

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Hi Drob - responding to your Reported Post.

 

As you've already sent the bemused letter to Lewis Debt Recovery, I think you should still write to Welcome confirming that the a/c is still in serious dispute on various counts so should not be passed on to Lewis or anyone else.

 

Re your letter in post #31, I think you should send this and add point 6:-

 

6. As this account is still in serious dispute, you are not permitted to sell it or pass it on to a DCA. To do so is a breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and I trust you will tell Lewis Debt Recovery not to contact me further.

 

The reality is that they'll disagree about your views on the enforceability of the agreement and the issues may only be tested by court action if they take it.

 

If you've added up all penalty charges on the a/c, you can confirm this amount in para. 4 of your letter. Are you claiming interest in restitution at Welcome's contractual interest rate. This could greatly increase the amount refunded to the a/c for penalty charges.


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Hello there Drob. Sorry for not getting back to you as I promised up there, but the site upgrade disrupted my access to CAG for a while.

 

My view is that by passing to Lewis who have demanded the full amount outstanding under the (non)agreement, Welcome have effectively terminated by their actions. I would point that out the next time you write to them (Welcome), and accept their termination.

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Hello there Drob. Sorry for not getting back to you as I promised up there, but the site upgrade disrupted my access to CAG for a while.

 

My view is that by passing to Lewis who have demanded the full amount outstanding under the (non)agreement, Welcome have effectively terminated by their actions. I would point that out the next time you write to them (Welcome), and accept their termination.

 

Thank You IainHL

 

I will write to Welcome tonight. Before i do this what implications does this have? Also I belive that the DN that Welcome sent was defective as it did not give a date to remdy the account it merely stated 14 days from the date of this letter.

 

Many Thanks

drob

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Update

 

I haven't heard anything from Welcome Finance, however they have now passed the account to DLC for collection. I wrote to DLC and told them that the account is in serious dispute with Welcome Finance and that the account should not have been passed to them.

 

I received a call from DLC today who told me that Welcome have no records of my account being in dispute, can't believe Welcome can blatently lie!! Anyway DLC now want me to send copies of letters that i have sent to Welcome to prove that the account is disputed.

 

Should i send copies of letters to DLC?

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Hi Drob,

 

If this new DCA, DLC, want to collect a debt, it is up to THEM to ensure they have the necessary paperwork.

 

You have no obligation to send them copy letters or anything else.

 

Instead, you could send them a CCA request with the £1 fee.

 

Alternatively, tell them if they call again, or you could write saying,

 

"I acknowledge no debt to your company.

 

Until you provide me with the a valid credit agreement and Notice of Assignment, I will not correspond with you further."

 

See the Debt Collectors Library for template letters.

 

Also, bear in mind that there's been recent clarification from the OFT about what constitutes a proper response to a CCA request. See Link No 4 in my signature, which has a non-legalese summary at the end.

 

8-)


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Thank You for Your Response slick132 ...

 

I did find it strange that DLC wanted me to prove that the account was in dispute by me sending them documentation.

 

In Summary

1. In my opinion Welcome have supplied me with a Credit Agreement that has been, in my opinion manipulated.

2. Welcome have admitted that they do not have an original copy of my agreement as they do not keep the original document.

3. Welcome will be unable to prove that the agreement thay have sent to me has been reconstructed from the original

4. Default Notice has not been executed properly

5. Account has been passed to a Debt Collection Agency whilst in dispute

 

I think i will write to DLC again and tell that I acknowledge no debt to them and until they provide me with the a valid credit agreement and Notice of Assignment, I will not correspond with them. I will aslo have a read through link no 4 on your signature.

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To cut a very long story short I have an ongoing dispute with Welcome Finance. The lovely people at Welcome decided that instead of dealing with my dispute they will farm my account out to several DCA's for collection.

 

Empingham are the latest to contact me. I think in total Empingham are the 4th to ask for payment.

 

All other DCA's have returned my file to Welcome once I have wrote to them telling them that the accouns is in serious dispute with Welcome, however Empingham have decided to send me the following letter.

 

Dear drob

 

Thank you for your letter dated **/**/**. You have not stated what your on going dispute is with Welcome Finance.

 

If you call me directly on 666 and discuss your dispute with me. I can always look into ways of getting this resolved as soon as possible.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 7 days

 

Yours Faithully

Empingham Ltd

 

 

Is the reason for the dispute none of Empingham's buisness ?

 

Who should I report Welcome Finance to as this is the 4th DCA that this disputed account to has been passed to?

 

Welcome are saying that they have no knowledge of a dispute (Absoulute BullCrap)

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sounds like you are on a phishing list

 

pers i'd ignore them

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, the whole DCA industry would collapse overnight.

 

 

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UPDATE

 

 

Lowell have now purchased this account (allegedly) I have wrote to Lowell and told that the account that they have purchased is in dispute as In my opinion Welcome have supplied me with a Credit Agreement that has been, in my opinion manipulated.

 

Lowell wrote to Welcome and they responded by saying when I cancelled the PPI insurance on the loan I was provided with a new account number and that they did not issue a new agreement and that it is not always necessary for a new agreement to be signed when all the previous account details remain the same.

 

Summary:

 

1. Welcome claim that a new loan agreement wasn't sent to me, however I do have a new loan agreement from them which I believe to be manipulated.

2. I cancelled the PPI which would have changed the details and terms of the original loan agreement, plus Welcome gave me a new account number so surely a new agreement would and should have been provided.

3. Alleged outstanding alance contains charges

4. The original defaullt notice was not executed properly.

 

Lowell have ceased collection activity for 30 days waiting for my reply.

 

Please can anyone offer me any advise what to do next?

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UPDATE

 

 

Lowell have now purchased this account (allegedly) I have wrote to Lowell and told that the account that they have purchased is in dispute as In my opinion Welcome have supplied me with a Credit Agreement that has been, in my opinion manipulated.

 

Lowell wrote to Welcome and they responded by saying when I cancelled the PPI insurance on the loan I was provided with a new account number and that they did not issue a new agreement and that it is not always necessary for a new agreement to be signed when all the previous account details remain the same.

 

Summary:

 

1. Welcome claim that a new loan agreement wasn't sent to me, however I do have a new loan agreement from them which I believe to be manipulated.

2. I cancelled the PPI which would have changed the details and terms of the original loan agreement, plus Welcome gave me a new account number so surely a new agreement would and should have been provided.

3. Alleged outstanding alance contains charges

4. The original defaullt notice was not executed properly.

 

Lowell have ceased collection activity for 30 days waiting for my reply.

 

Please can anyone offer me any advise what to do next?

 

Yes, when my OH's agreement was restructured after the removal of PPI a new agreement was produced which was required to be signed ! (this was not a Welcome contract BTW)

 

The charges can be / should be reclaimed which would reduce any alleged balance.

 

If the DN was not correctly issued then it would make things difficult for them come any attempt at litigation

 

I am not quite sure what to advise, so will flag for others to comment. Do be aware that Lowells are very trigger happy and have been issuing Statutory demands. Although these can be set aside, it is frustrating and time consuming.

 

Do you know what value the charges applied amount to ?


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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Yes, when my OH's agreement was restructured after the removal of PPI a new agreement was produced which was required to be signed ! (this was not a Welcome contract BTW)

 

The charges can be / should be reclaimed which would reduce any alleged balance.

 

If the DN was not correctly issued then it would make things difficult for them come any attempt at litigation

 

I am not quite sure what to advise, so will flag for others to comment. Do be aware that Lowells are very trigger happy and have been issuing Statutory demands. Although these can be set aside, it is frustrating and time consuming.

 

 

Do you know what value the charges applied amount to ?

 

 

Hi & thank you for you quick response... Lowell have asked for a breakdown of the charges which I feel are unfair and the reason why I feel they are unfair...

 

1. The Fees applied are approximately £280.00

2. The default noticed was definitely not executed correctly, however I have never brought the fact to Welcome or Lowell's who now own the alleged debt.

3. Welcome did send a new agreement when they removed the PPI, which was reconstructed from the original agreement by copying and pasting, however when I questioned Welcome about their fraudulent behavior they denied the fact and passed the alleged debt to several DCA'S before Lowell decided to purchase the account. Since I brought the fact that I thought the second agreement was fraudulently reconstructed Welcome have denied they ever sent it and try and cover themselves by saying "we did not issue a new agreement and that it is not always necessary for a new agreement to be signed when all the previous account details remain the same"

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Well there will also be the interest on those charges, have you completed a spread sheet ?


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Well there will also be the interest on those charges, have you completed a spread sheet ?

 

I haven't done a spreadsheet yet, would I include 'Letter Fee's' on the spreadsheet?

 

Looking at the statement are Capatalisation Fee's interest charges? and what are Fee Assessment Charges?

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bump!

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Hi Drob,

 

Letter Fees should be reclaimed as they are effectively penalty charges.

 

I'm really not sure about the Capitalisation Fees or Fee Assessment Charges. However, you could follow the rule that any interest charges made to the a/c are NOT reclaimable and any type of fee for late, missed or bounced pay'ts ARE reclaimable.

 

If in doubt, claim it and negotiate as necessary when reaching a settlement agreement.

 

:-)


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Interpretating a Welcome statement is a bit of a black art. They seem to have this ability to have multiple statement lines relating to the same transaction. You need to work your way through carefully, noting the lines that affect the balance outstanding, to reach an understanding of what the statement really means.

 

However, as Slick says, letter fees are reclaimable, as are phone call fees, returned payment fees, and outside visit fees, etc. What are the sort of amounts are these "Fee Assessment Charges"? If they are round pounds then I would say they are reclaimable. If not I would surmise they are interest on the charges, and wouldn't specifically reclaim them, instead letting the interest calculations on the spreadsheet take care of them.

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A little something to add, check the signature on the alleged agreement against all letters you have sent them, they must if lifted it from somewhere!

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I have been doing some digging around and 'Capitalisation Fees' are interest charges...

 

I just want some advice on how to handle this. Up to now this account has been to 5 debt collection agencies who have all returned the account back to Welcome. Welcome have now sold the account to Lowell.

 

a) A default was issued in 2010, however the default is invalid

b) Fees and charges have been added to the account which are reclaimable

c) A second Credit agreement has in my opinion been manipulated, however Welcome claim they did not issue a second agreement

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Hi Drob,

 

What do you mean by manipulated.

 

Banks are allowed to send a reconstituted credit agreement in response to a CCA request. However, that document may not necessarily be the document the bank or a DCA needs to succeed in court action to reclaim a debt.

 

:-D


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Hi Drob,

 

What do you mean by manipulated.

 

Banks are allowed to send a reconstituted credit agreement in response to a CCA request. However, that document may not necessarily be the document the bank or a DCA needs to succeed in court action to reclaim a debt.

 

:-D

 

 

I took a personal loan with Welcome Finance on 5th November 2008 which included Personal Accident & Payment Protection Insurance. I then decided to cancel the Insurances within the cooling off period. Welcome Finance cancelled the Insurance and informed me of my new monthly payment. No revised credit agreement was sent to me nor did i sign a revised agreement.

 

In 2010 I sent Welcome a CCA request and the statutory payment (£1 postal order). Welcome failed to respond so I rang them up, they claimed that they hadn't received a CCA request not the £1 postal order and they couldn't understand why I needed a copy of my credit agreement as I already had it when I first took the loan out in 2008. I said, yes i have the original but not an amended agreement to reflect the cancellation of Insurances and reflecting my new monthly payment. At this point Welcome put the phone down. I then sent a recorded letter to Welcome telling that they were in default of my request and also sent them proof of the £1 payment.

 

Several weeks past and to my shock I received a revised credit agreement bearing my signature showing the insurance payments removed and a new monthly payment.

 

1. I did not sign a new agreement.

 

2. The Original agrrement was signed on 5th Nov 2008 and the agreement that they have sent me was alllegedly signed by me on 25th Nov 2008. It appears they have addded a 2 before the 5.

 

Welcome have denied they ever sent a revised agreement and are trying to cover themselves by saying "we did not issue a new agreement and that it is not always necessary for a new agreement to be signed when all the previous account details remain the same"

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Thanks for saving me trawling back through the thread !

 

Given the age of the documents, one would assume the original(s) are available for inspection at the Company HQ.

 

How far have Lowells taken their collection activity so far.

 

Have you made a formal reclaim for charges or fees added to the a/c yet, or is this still in the pipeline.


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Thanks for saving me trawling back through the thread !

 

Given the age of the documents, one would assume the original(s) are available for inspection at the Company HQ.

 

How far have Lowells taken their collection activity so far.

 

Have you made a formal reclaim for charges or fees added to the a/c yet, or is this still in the pipeline.

 

 

I received a letter from Lowell on 30th April 2010.....

 

Dear drob

 

In regards to account number xxxxxxxx, you have confirmed that your complaint with Welcome Finance relates to a reconstituted credit agreement which you believe that this was reconstituted fraudulently copying your signature from an old agreement and pasting it onto another agreement. You have advised that your complaint also relates to charges that Welcome Finance added to the account, which you feel are unfair and disproportionate.

 

In relation to account number xxxxxxxx, I have discussed your correspondence with Welcome Finance and they have sent me a copy of your complaint response dated 10 November 2011. ( I have never received any correspondence from Welcome nor did Lowell enclose a copy of a reply. Lowell simply quoted the following in this letter)

 

I note from your response that when your insurance was cancelled you were provided with a new account number, however they did not issue with an agreement in relation to this. Therefore your complaint was upheld. Welcome Finance have confirmed that it is not always necessary for a new agreement to be signed when all previous details remain the same. They also advised that if you believe that your signature has been fraudulently transferred from one agreement to another, then you must contact the Police to enable them to Investigate.

 

Finally in relation to your comments that your complaint also relates to charges that Welcome Finance have added to the account, to enable me to review this matter further it would be helpful if you could highlight the fees and charges which you feel are unfair. I have enclosed the statements again to assist.

 

We remain committed to bringing this matter to a positive resolution, therefore I have placed your account on hold for 30 days to either contact the Police regarding Welcome Finance or return the statements highlighting the fees and charges which you believe are unfair

 

Yours Sincerely

Lowell

 

As yet I haven't made a formal reclaim of charges to Lowell.

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Hi Drob,

 

In the circumstances, I think you should wait for Lowells to take whatever action they choose, and then defend if necessary. As regards them acting as "piggy in the middle" between you and Welcome, I'd write to them and say :-

 

This account remains in serious dispute as the issues raised with Welcome have not been resolved. I received no letter from Welcome dated 10th November 2011, nor did you enclose a copy of the letter alleged to have been sent.

 

If you wish to pursue the matter, I will defend my position as necessary.

 

In the meantime, please confirm that the original two loan agreement documents, dated 5th and 25th November 2008, are available at your own or Welcome's offices for inspection.

 

:-)


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Hi Drob,

 

In the circumstances, I think you should wait for Lowells to take whatever action they choose, and then defend if necessary. As regards them acting as "piggy in the middle" between you and Welcome, I'd write to them and say :-

 

This account remains in serious dispute as the issues raised with Welcome have not been resolved. I received no letter from Welcome dated 10th November 2011, nor did you enclose a copy of the letter alleged to have been sent.

 

If you wish to pursue the matter, I will defend my position as necessary.

 

In the meantime, please confirm that the original two loan agreement documents, dated 5th and 25th November 2008, are available at your own or Welcome's offices for inspection.

 

:-)

 

Hi Slick132

 

Thank you for your reply, should I also enclose a schedule of charges and mention the invalid default notice?

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No, I would just concentrate on the issue of the core documents - ie the credit agreements, including the one you say has been fabricated fraudulently.

 

While they make something of a fuss about your need to report this to the police if you truly believe fraud is involved, you're under no obligation to choose this route.

 

However, if you don't report it, your claim of fraud may be less plausible.

 

:-)


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