Welcome Credit Agreement - Manipulated?!?

[drob]

I have to admit, that this type of agreement is not within my knowledge. I dont understand what you are meaning by "cobbled" together.

By Cobbled together i am refering to Welcome copying and pasting bits together.

 

Were your name and address on the document. I am not sure what the consequences of there not being an agreement number on the paperwork means unless other details are radically incorrect as well.

 

Yes my name and address was on the document. I removed all my personal details for the purpose of my thread, although no agreement number was on the document.

 

Are you saying that the terms and conditions were not or could not be part of the original document. Did you ever receive a copy of the original document by which you can confirm without proof that they are two unconnected pages ?

 

I did not receive any terms and conditions as I never signed an ammended agreement with the Insurances removed.

 

What does concern me is that, if radical changes are made to an agreement as in this case the removal of the insurance. Then I would have thought a new agreement would have been drawn up, as I already said. It changes the whole agreement and you would need protection should as has happened.. litigation happened.

 

Plus of course you are claiming that the signature isnt yours. You would need to hire an expert witness to back up your claim if this were to end up in court.

 

It is my signature on a document that I never signed. Welcome could have copied or pasted my signature from another document.

 

The qoute below was taken from your first post. You say the agreement was started in November 2008.. then later on that you sent a CCA request in April 2008 ? do you mean April 2009 ?

 

Sorry, yes i meant April 2009

 

 

 

The only thing I can suggest you do is write to Welcome ,advising that you have serious doubts about the authenticity of the paperwork they have provided you with and until such times as they provide you with an accurate copy of the original then you consider the account to be in dispute.

 

I will write to them and quote the above.

 

 

If at such times legal action is commenced, then you will be entitled under CPR31.15 to ask to inspect the original document. I would think as this account is so new, then they would have the original document on file.

 

HTH

 

 

Thank you for your advice .....

[drob]

*Update*

 

I wrote to welcome and in the letter I told them the following..........

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms. I must inform you that I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the paperwork you have provided me with and until such times you provide me with an accurate copy of the original true copy of the executed agreement then you can consider the account to be in dispute.

 

I received a reply today from Welcome......... all they have done is send me the same agreement and the same terms & conditions. In the letter they quote the following

 

"I have again enclosed a copy of your legal agreement and terms of the credit agreement for your reference. Please note we do not hold 'originals' as a scanned copy of your agreement is enforceable"

 

1. For the agreement to be an executed agreement, does the agreement need to be signed by Welcome?

 

2. Why did they not respond to my allegation that i have doubts about it's authenticity?

[IainHL]

1. For the agreement to be an executed agreement, does the agreement need to be signed by Welcome?

Yes. s.189(1) CCA1974.

 

2. Why did they not respond to my allegation that i have doubts about it's authenticity?

Because if they admit that it's game over for them, so they have to ignore it and hope you will continue to pay them.

[drob]

Thank you IainHL ......

 

What do you think my next move should be, condidering that the agreement has not been exexuted properly and that Welcome do not hold originals?

[citizenB]

If this were ever to proceed to litigation then you will be able to ask to see /inspect the original under CPR31.15.

 

Whilst recent test cases have said a creditor can reconstruct to satisfy s78 requests , they are still obliged to provide the original for court. Or at least be able to prove they reconstructed from the original.

 

TBH, I am not fully convinced that continuing to request a document which they evidently are not going to provide to you is worth the stress.

 

However, at the same time, I am not sure what would be your best options to move forward.

[drob]

The agreement that Welcome have sent twice has been reconstructed, however Welcome believe that this document is a legal and enforeable agreement.

 

If this did proceed to litigation then Welcome will not be able to provide the original document because they have already admitted to me in writing that they do not hold 'originals' as a scanned copy of the agreement is enforceable so they will not be able to prove that the scanned document is reconstructed from the original.

 

I am thinking of writing back To Welcome and point out that......

 

1. I still have serious doubts about the authenticity of the document.

 

2. The document has not been properly executed as per s.189(1) CCA1974

 

3. If they decided to proceed with litigation they would have to the original for court. Or at least be able to prove they reconstructed from the original and that they have already admitted that they do not keep originals.

 

4. Ask for all charges to be removed from the outstanding balance

 

5. Offer a realistic repayment plan to repay the outstanding balance

 

Has anyone any thoughts on my reply to Welcome or and advicewhat else to put in my letter??

[postggj]

hi drob

 

long time no see

 

to commence litigation, welcome would need the original to enforce in court,

 

not a micky mouse reconstructed one, the reconstructed agreement must be taken trom the original

[drob]

Hi postggj

 

So do you think that writing to Welcome with what i have posted in #31 above is wise or do you have any suggestions what to write?

[postggj]

let me do a rough draft of a letter to send welcome

 

its quite rare for welcome to issue court action, its normally the other way round

 

just remind me

 

when did welcome default the account and i take it thats the usual pay within 14 days on the default notice and not a numerical date

[drob]

let me do a rough draft of a letter to send welcome

 

its quite rare for welcome to issue court action, its normally the other way round

 

just remind me

 

when did welcome default the account and i take it thats the usual pay within 14 days on the default notice and not a numerical date

 

Date of Notice 17/06/2010 (sent by normal post and not recorded) and yes they gave 14 days notice to pay the arrears.

[postggj]

well they are stuffed anyway but keep the dn under your hat

 

check back tonight and ill do a rough letter for you to play with

 

we just need a termination notice now for end game

[drob]

well they are stuffed anyway but keep the dn under your hat

 

check back tonight and ill do a rough letter for you to play with

 

we just need a termination notice now for end game

 

 

Thank You postggj, will check back tonight

[drob]

well they are stuffed anyway but keep the dn under your hat

 

check back tonight and ill do a rough letter for you to play with

 

we just need a termination notice now for end game

 

 

Hi postggj

 

Any luck in the draught letter?

[drob]

Bump @ postggj

[drob]

Bump @ postgjj

[drob]

Update

 

I received a telephone call from Welcome last week who could not understand what my compliant was all about. I explained that in my opinion the agreement that you have sent has been copied and pasted together as I do not recall ever signing a secong agreement. He replied " We do not keep original copies of agreements, we scan the agreements and then throw them away" He then said "So you will not be making any payment today then" I replied NO.

 

On 13th August I received another default notice and letter.... copies attached .... I just don't know what to do next, can anyone help???

wwl1.PDF

wwl2.PDF

[IainHL]

They still haven't learned. The new default notice is as valid as the previous one (in other words it isn't compliant).

 

I take it from the lack of black pen at the bottom of the covering letter attached above that there was no named person for you to contact? Typical ineptitude.

 

The comment about them not keeping originals but scanning them and throwing them away is irrelevant. If they had scanned it there would be no need to send you a cut and paste job.

 

I suggest right for the moment you do nothing. When did you last pay them anything?

 

I will try and take a read through your thread sometime this week and see if I can suggest a form of words you could throw at them, should you wish.

[drob]

Hello IainHL and thank you for your reply.

 

1. The covering letter had no signature or contact name

2. My last payment to Welcome was 15/01/2010

[citizenB]

Regardless of the fact there is a covering letter, I am pretty certain the DN should have the name and address of the Company on it. The DN should also be addressed to you personally. That is nothing more than a template document.

 

It also fails the "date" test. It should have a specific date which allows for time in the post. Yours doesnt. It says "within 14 days".. ooops !!

[citizenB]

Thing is until they actually demand the whole of the outstanding amount or specifically write to say the agreement is terminated and demand the whole amount.. they can issue as many DNs they like until they "get it right" so are you wise to keep reminding them they have screwed it up ?

[drob]

Regardless of the fact there is a covering letter, I am pretty certain the DN should have the name and address of the Company on it. The DN should also be addressed to you personally. That is nothing more than a template document.

 

It also fails the "date" test. It should have a specific date which allows for time in the post. Yours doesnt. It says "within 14 days".. ooops !!

 

Hi citizenB, thank you for your response....

 

• The DN does state the name and address of the company.
  
• The DN does state "within 14 days from the date of this notice" or does it have to actualy state the exact date???
  
• The alleged ammended agreement in my view has not been executed because Welcome have not signed the agreement, is this correct?
  

[citizenB]

sorry drob, I meant it had to be on their headed paper Yes, it should state a date that allows for at least 2 working days - 1st class or 4 working days - 2nd class or UK Mail.

 

So if I was sending you a DN dated 1st September (tomorrow) then the remedy date would need to be shown as 17th September 2010 if it were posted 1st class and I think 21st if it were posted 2nd class mail (as 2 of the posting days would be a weekend).

 

Hmmm, signing of agreements. If it were signed tomorrow then it would be executed and I rather suspect a judge would allow that. Now if YOU hadnt signed it.. that would be a different matter.. sorry...

[drob]

Update

I received a letter from Lewis Debt Recovery this morning demanding the outstanding balavce of £1034.46. So good old Welcome have passed an account in serious dispute to a Debt Collection Agency.

 

So in summary....

 

1. In my opinion Welcome have supplied me with a Credit Agreement that has been, in my opinion manipulated.

2. Welcome have admitted that they do not have an original copy of my agreement as they do not keep the original document.

3. Welcome will be unable to prove that the agreement thay have sent to me has been reconstructed from the original

4. Default Notice has not been executed properly

5. Account has been passed to a Debt Collection Agency whilst in dispute

 

Any comments or suggestions on what to do next will be most grateful!

[drob]

Ok ... I have sent Lewis a bemused letter and I have revoked their permission to visit me at home

[drob]

So as Welcome have passed the account to Lewis Debt Recovery for the full amount I persume Welcome have terminated the agreement???