About to battle a car dealer Help!!

[weelieboots]

To cut a long story short, I bought a car on 27/01/10 from a dealer. I got it cheap as he had told me about a wing mirror being damaged, a bit of panelling missing and a coil spring being broken. This was fine with me and I accepted the sale after getting his garage to check it over, he says its fine. He sold it to me under a trade sale meaning no warranty due to it being a reduced price. 2 days later, I am having problems with the EMC light and lumpy starts so I call him and he recommends I go to his garage. I do this they reset EMC but no joy, still bad starts. The garage messes me around changing spark plugs,etc and telling me they cant book it in so I go to my garage, they test it and find out its a blown head gasket. I save the money, repair it, end of story - so I hoped. I need the car to travel to work so didnt have time for faffing until the garage got it sorted so did it myself. Car continues to cause problems and I discover from the garage it has been in a smash meaning a new bumper was fitted, the air conditioning was damaged causing the head gasket to go, bad earthing, a horn fault, no drivers airbag and no reverse light. I check the MOT and an advisory was given of no airbag but I didnt receive this with my certificate. It also failed 2 days before my MOT with a series of faults including a broken coil spring. Anyway, car is in and out of garage at the mo and I have now contacted the dealer and trading standards for a full refund and/or cost of repairs. Dealer says I have left it too long but under SOGA I have 6 mths. Just wondering if anyone has experience of this and what my steps should be? Should I hire a solicitor?

[sailor sam]

ok firstly you shot yourself in the foot having the head gasket done. You should of demanded that the seller sorted it out or you could of rejeceted there and then.

 

Having said that, it seems to me that the seller sold you an un-roadworthy car in the first place with a broken coil spring. personally, I find it a bit strange that someone would buy a car with that fault.

 

The outcome of this will depend on documented evidence. Have you got the following; the advisory MOT notice you mention, a copy of any advertising for the car which details it's condition. Also, have you had an HPI check done to see if it has the 'smash' recorded as a write off? How old is the car and what make is it?

 

As for SOGA the dealer is correct but depending on the points I have raised, you may still be able to bring a case against the seller.

 

__________________

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The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

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[weelieboots]

Thanks for that.

 

The only reason I got it done was because I was fed up with his garage wasting my time, I wasnt aware of my rights and I thought it may have been wear and tear (being unaware of the accident at the time)

 

I have had a HPI done and it shows nothing, can get the MOT proof and proof of repairs/damage. Do you think autotrader can provide me proof of the ad?

 

He assured me the coil spring was minor and would be fixed asap which it was (at my cost tho) so I was ok with that. For the price, I didnt mind at the time. I also wouldnt have minded the head gasket as said before if it was wear and tear but now I have realised that it is due to an accident,I do not see why I am footing the bill.

 

The car is a 2004 seat ibiza 1.2 40000 miles.

[sailor sam]

Thanks for that.

 

The only reason I got it done was because I was fed up with his garage wasting my time, I wasnt aware of my rights and I thought it may have been wear and tear (being unaware of the accident at the time)

 

I have had a HPI done and it shows nothing, can get the MOT proof and proof of repairs/damage. Do you think autotrader can provide me proof of the ad?

 

He assured me the coil spring was minor and would be fixed asap which it was (at my cost tho) so I was ok with that. For the price, I didnt mind at the time. I also wouldnt have minded the head gasket as said before if it was wear and tear but now I have realised that it is due to an accident,I do not see why I am footing the bill.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

 

 

The car is a 2004 seat ibiza 1.2 40000 miles.

 

Rubbish! If it wouldn't pass an MOT then the dealer broke the law selling it because it was deemed to be un-roadworthy. But thats OK because YOU paid to have it fixed. I'm beginning to think the seller saw you comming.

Why would you pay to have work done on the car which needed doing when you bought it?

 

As far as Auto Trader is concerned, you would have to ask them but without SOGA to rely on, you will need as much evidence as you can get. You will have to base any claim on finding out that there were pre-purchase issues (MOT advisory notice ect) out side the 6 month period whic SOGA applies. The way the car was adversised will be relevant.

[heliosuk]

Sam,

 

You ever seen a 2004 Ibiza with 40K on the mileometer? Can happen though rare. Me thinks a "doubtful mileage" as well which could be the icing on the cake!!

[sailor sam]

I agree... 40K and a blown head gasket + the other problems = dodgy motor.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Conniff]

Certainly dodgy speak. Ask them how the a/c made the head gasket blow, there is no connection between them at all. I mention that as it brings into doubt any other diagnosis you've had of your problems.

 

Your main brickwall is that as you have had the car in and out of various garages, it's not the same car that the dealer sold you. When the head gasket was diagnosed, you should have taken it back to the dealer to get fixed not just taken it on yourself. How does the dealer, or even yourself, know that the head gasket was blown, he isn't going to pay for repairs he can't be sure of.

 

How many past owners has the car had?

[weelieboots]

I did take it to the garage he recommended but they were completely wasting my time and costing me a fortune changing spark plugs etc so I took it to the garage that I have dealt with for years and they kept it for 2 days testing it and working it out. His garage refused to accept it was a head gasket and I could not waste more time and miss work waiting for him to listen to me. He also was based in the middle of nowhere meaning I had to either wait or find another way or getting to work from there. The reason the head gasket blew was that the car had had a smash, the air conditioning pipe got disconnected, a shabby repair was done and the pipe was left leaking into my engine causing the head gasket to go.

 

The car has had 3 previous owners and seems to be from Middlesborough area. It seems my dealer bought it from auction. Would it be an idea to contact the previous owner?

[weelieboots]

Ok got the ad:

 

 

SEAT IBIZA 1.2 3DR - 34000 MLS - PX TO CLEAR -, 3 Doors, Manual 5 speed, Hatchback, Petrol, 2004 04 Reg , 34,000 miles, Blue, MOT-10-2010. Rear wiper, Air conditioning, Passenger airbag, Remote central locking, Drivers airbag, Solid Paint, Folding rear seats, Radio/CD, Rear headrests, Steering wheel reach adjustment, 3x3 point rear seat belts, Steering wheel rake adjustment, Immobiliser, Front electric windows, Body coloured bumpers, Cloth seat trim, Isofix child seat anchor points, PAS, Front head restraints, Steel wheels.

Insurance Group:3, JUST IN, LOW MILEAGE IBIZA, CHEAP TO IN SURE., PART EXCHANGE BARGAIN TO CLEAR, TRADE SALE PRICE DRIVE AWAY. LONG MOT. HPI CLEAR AND CERTIFICATE GIVEN WITH CAR. NO OFFERS PLS., £2,495

 

There is no airbag which he knew about as it was on the MOT advisory and no air con - damaged in the bumper smash which then went on to cause the head gasket failure.

 

How does this help? Going to see a solicitor tomorrow so may get a letter sent across at the same time too. I am aware that I have lowered my chances through getting it repaired elsewhere but when he was not willing to do it and fobbed me off to his garage who then charged me non stop for unrelated things, can I still argue that in the case?

[Conniff]

Seems he has taken away your rights under statute which is illegal. Add that angle in and yes, go for it as misdescribed and not fit for purpose.

 

Write down in list form all he claimed in his advert and then all the faults so it is easy to compare one with the other.

 

Next list all problems that you were charged for at this garage, have you got receipts for them?

[sailor sam]

Ok, you now got some amunition. Write to the seller stating that you have become aware that the car has been involved in an accident which you wasn't made aware of. Also that you have become aware of an MOT advisory notice stating that the airbag was faulty which you hadn't been advised of. Indicate that you have obtained a copy of the original advert which most definately indicates that the car has a 'driver's airbag' and 'airconditioning', both these items you are now in a postion to prove they did not work when you puchased the car. You should also point out that the car should not of been sold with any defect that rendered it un-passable for an MOT, such as a broken spring. You also reserve the right to investigate the 'un-usually low mileage' which, given the faults puts this in some doubt. Therefore, you are now seeking a full refund of the original purchase price and wish that the seller recovers the car from you within 14 days. Failure to do so will prompt you to consider recovery through the small claims court in which you will be adding interest to the claim which will also include all court fees. Send by recorded delivery (unless you want to run it by your solicitor first), keep a copy. Be prepared to actually take this to court so I would certainkly get the opinions of a solicitior first. I'm not sure you can claim for the head gasket repair because it would appear that you arranged the repair yourself. Also, i'm not sure you can rely on SOGA in respect of the time scale which is 6 months, but you could argue that the main issues were not discovered until recently and you can prove that the faults existed at the point of sale.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[weelieboots]

Thats more like it - its been a hard slog and probably will get harder but im seeing this through to the end. Does SOGA still apply as it was less than 6 mths ago?

 

Ive also contacted VOSA who are sending the MOT and mileage details to their Regional Intelligence Unit who are going to investigate it further.

[sailor sam]

Thats more like it - its been a hard slog and probably will get harder but im seeing this through to the end. Does SOGA still apply as it was less than 6 mths ago?

 

Ive also contacted VOSA who are sending the MOT and mileage details to their Regional Intelligence Unit who are going to investigate it further.

 

Sorry yes, I miss-read that bit of your original post. SOGA will still apply.

 

Personally, I would of not involved VOSA at this stage. The 'suggestion' to the seller (as per my advice in my previous post) that you reserve the right to do so may have been enough to get him to settle.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[flub1976]

just double check your invoice and make sure that youdidnt buy the car as an unroadworthy vehicle as that would scupper your claim. very easy for a dealer to do and you are stuffed

[sailor sam]

just double check your invoice and make sure that youdidnt buy the car as an unroadworthy vehicle as that would scupper your claim. very easy for a dealer to do and you are stuffed

 

The dealer can put what he likes on the invoice but that dosn't mean it would mitigate or replace the OP's statutory rights thus would 'scupper' the OP's claim. The dealer cannot lawfully sell an un-roadworthy car in the first place. 'Sold as seen' is not a legal term and would not be recognised under SOGA or more importantly, by a court of law.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[flub1976]

Sailor sam im not looking for an argument here but that is not strickly true. A vehicle can be purchased as unroadworthy provided that the seller/dealer clearly informs the customer/buyer of such and the paperwork states this. Further more the vehicle must not be allowed to leave under its own steam etc? but must be towed or delivered.

 

This is a common thing and is not the same as just writing "trade sale" or "sold as seen" I dont think this dealer has done so "he doesnt seem very clever if he does this often, but I thought is wise to mention it in case.

 

If he did sell it as unroadworthy you would still have a very good case as he supplied the mot etc which would imply its roadworthiness to a layman.

[sailor sam]

Get your point flub but the car wasn't sold as un-roadworthy... far from it.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[flub1976]

fine. Obviously any mentioned faults (that the customer was aware of at the point of sale) are therefore irrelevant to any claim for return of money. The head gasket issue is contentious as the op has had it fixed under his own initiative.

 

SOGA would put the oweness on the seller to show that the transaction was legal and that the condition was comensorate with the age mileage price paid DESCRIPTION etc with in the forst 6 months. The description is the key part and the evidence which whows that the airbag was most probably not right at the point of sale.

 

I do however think that as emotive as it might be the dealer would get away with repairing the airbag and stating that the aircon was fin and might have been "bodged" or cut out in one of the many visits since sale, or when the headgasket was done.

 

Would recomend contacting the previous owners and finding out the true history fo the car.

 

The fact that it has had a smash is not really of relevance as it is not recorded and unless the paperwork says "this vehicle is has never been involved in an accident" then it is not a good basis of arguement for refund.

 

I sympathise as you appear to have bought a rite lemon but not all dealers are thick and there is plenty of wriggle room in this for him if he wants to use it.

[sailor sam]

What did your solicitor say welli?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[heliosuk]

With respect flub I can see what you are saying but feel it is plucking at straws with regards the air con and would be easy to disprove the theory. However that is minor compared to the other faults. The air bag is one unroadworthy point which you admit should be repaired but how do you explain the broken spring? This is more serious than the airbag and the fact is the car should have been issued with a red ticket.

[weelieboots]

Solicitor said it was so clear cut they dont even need to help. He admitted that I didnt help matters by getting it repaired elsewhere but it could stand as I did contact the dealer, he recommended I went to the garage he deals with which I did twice and then play the card that it was not convenient or feasible to leave my car at that garage for 5 days with no way of getting home or to work so it made sense to take it local.

 

On top of that he said that I had him on 2 aspects of SOGA - not fit for purpose as it had major faults and also not as described with the advert differing from actual features on car.

 

He recommended I finsih the 14days notice and if I get no good news, put in a claim to the small claims court for the costs plus any expenses. He also recommended I get a full RAC inspection which also goes under costs and get quotes to get the air conditioning and airbag fixed.

 

Ive enquired about the inspection today and its pricey so need to wait until the 14days are up to book it. The garage I deal with couldnt quote repair costs as they said it will take inspection of the 2 faults to see if its a simple replenish or if parts are actually missing so I am waiting now until Tuesday.

[flub1976]

there are other independant assessors who are far better and cheaper I always used a guy called Kevin Law but I dont have his number

[weelieboots]

solicitor had said it was a clear cut case, got a call the next day and he offered me the costs of all my repairs. I accepted this and was happy.

 

However, I am now trying to sell the car and more has come to light - apparently the car has had loads of repairs to engine and body that are not done very well. I am seeking the dealer to either buy back the car or give a refund now. Where do I stand on that?

[sailor sam]

solicitor had said it was a clear cut case, got a call the next day and he offered me the costs of all my repairs. I accepted this and was happy.

 

However, I am now trying to sell the car and more has come to light - apparently the car has had loads of repairs to engine and body that are not done very well. I am seeking the dealer to either buy back the car or give a refund now. Where do I stand on that?

 

Not very well I would of thought as your'e now outside the 6 months protection period provided under SOGA.

 

How did these other faults come to light? Has the dealer sorted out the previous faults?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[weelieboots]

He hasnt repaired the faults yet as it was only last week that we sorted a deal. The faults came to light when I was gettint it valued for sale. I got quoted 3/4 ridiculous prices of £1200 then £1300 and thought I was being done over so took it to 2 dealers I know and they quoted £1400. Its now getting checked by my neighbour who is a body work expert to get a valuation but its looking like 50% of the car has been damaged.