Hillesden/Aplins and a claimform no debt details ** A SUCCESS STORY** :)

[gazbo34]

Hi Guys and Gals,

 

Not been on for a while as ive been a good boy or so i thought til a letter from Aplins solicitors dropped on the doormat on Friday morning advising me they were going to issue a claim at Northhampton Court on behalf of Hilesden Securities Ltd.

 

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww256/gazbo34/APLINS%20-%20CCJ/LetterFromAplins.jpg

 

Got no idea who Hillesden Securities are and how i owe them nearly £4K so fired off the letter below recorded delivery on Friday Afternoon.Just the standard "stop contacting me till you provide evidence as to my liability etc."

 

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww256/gazbo34/APLINS%20-%20CCJ/AmmendedLetterToAlpins.jpg

 

So that was that, then got up Saturday morning to find a Court Summons from Northampton County Court off Hillesden Securities/Aplins Solicitors

 

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww256/gazbo34/APLINS%20-%20CCJ/ClaimFormPOC.jpg

 

After perusing(word of the week!!) the claim form i still have no idea what it is i owe them the money for, the POC are so vague "in respect of banking facilities provided" as to not even give me a hint.Obviously i have to reply to the claim and will be completing the acknowledgment of service and asking for the 28 day extension.

 

So my first question is:-

What would be the best course of action to take over this?

 

I need to find out exactly what the debt is for, how it has been made up, any PPI etc and who it was with so will a CPR request cover this or should i also go down the SAR route?

 

Because the POC doesnt mention any documents do i need to go for a CPR 31.14 or a CPR 31.15 and if it is CPR 31.15 then can i apply for a CPR15.5(Time Extension)

 

Any thoughts or ideas and help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Gazbo

[DonkeyB]

First of all, have a look here at PT2537's thread. It explains really well how you can actually go on the attack in a situation like this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/241827-legal-action-how-start.html

 

I think you need to write (copying the court) asking them to revise their PoC to show some cause of action.

 

And send everything recorded delivery!

[gazbo34]

Thx for the prompt reply donkeyB,

Have now filled in my acknowledgment of service online and read hundreds of posts.(My head hurts )

There seems to be a bit of confusion with caggers over the best way to proceed when the POC are non existant- in my case

 

"The claimant's claim is in respect of banking facilities provided at the request of the defendant and under which the amount shown below is now due and owing from the defendant"

 

As no documents are mentioned in the POC CPR 31.14 is out of the window so do i

1) Go down the CPR 18 route and list everything i can think of as i have no clue who the OC was so CCA needed, what the debt is for,how its made up, any charges PPI etc and anything else i can think of.

2) Go down the pleadings are not good enough for a trial and as such ask them to re-plead their case or i will make an application to the court compelling them to re-plead OR

3) Both of the above !!

 

Any thoughts welcomed

 

Gazbo

[DonkeyB]

Do (2) first, and demand an urgent response by return.

 

(1) is pointless as you don't know what it's about.

 

A judge would laugh that PoC out of court. It was written by a complete dunce. There is a village somewhere missing its idiot - he's at Aplins.

 

I'm starting to hope an embarrassed defence is the way. I want to see that PoC in front of a judge at AQ...

[gazbo34]

Thx Donkey, am glad its not just me who thinks the PoC are p*ss poor to say the least.

Am going to have a shower and a beer and compose a suitable reply which i'll post on here later

 

Hi Guys and Gals, here's the letter i want to send to aplins solicitors,can someone have a quick look at the following and give me their thoughts before i send it off, also i will be sending a copy to Northampton County Court, is there anyone in particular i should address it to??

 

 

 

In the Northampton County Court

Hillesden Securities -v- xxxxxxxxxxx

Claim Number: xxxxxxxxx

 

16th June 2010

 

Dear Sirs,

I have recently received a court claim from your organisation dated 09 June 2010.

 

After examining your Particulars of Claim I can find no details at all regarding this alleged debt and would like to point out the following:-

 

 

• The Defendant will object that the Particulars of Claim in this action disclose no reasonable cause of action against the Defendant and makes no allegations against the Defendant as to why the Defendant should be liable to the Claimant for the amount claimed.
  
• The Particulars of Claim do not comply with the Civil Procedure Rules as (amongst other things) they do not show how the sum of £xxxx was arrived at and the Particulars of Claim are too vague. The Statement of Claim shows no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim.
  
• The Claimant should, therefore, serve an amended claim to set out the basis in law and fact for their claim as there is no pleaded basis for the claim itself. The Claimant should give full Particulars of the charges they are seeking to recover, identifying each charge, the date and amount of the charge.
  
• The Defendant should then be given the opportunity to defend the proceedings further.
  

In view of the above I would ask that you re-plead you case complying fully with Civil Procedure Rules and that you notify me within 7 days of receipt of this letter of your decision (A copy of which is also being sent to Northampton County Court).

If you decide not to re-plead your case I will make an application to Northampton County Court for an order compelling you to re-plead your case

 

I await your comments.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

Gazbo

[DonkeyB]

Hi Guys and Gals, here's the letter i want to send to aplins solicitors,can someone have a quick look at the following and give me their thoughts before i send it off, also i will be sending a copy to Northampton County Court, is there anyone in particular i should address it to??

 

 

 

In the Northampton County Court

Hillesden Securities -v- xxxxxxxxxxx

Claim Number: xxxxxxxxx

 

16th June 2010

 

Dear Sirs,

I have recently received a court claim from your organisation dated 09 June 2010.

 

After examining your Particulars of Claim I can find no details at all regarding this alleged debt and would like to point out the following:-

 

 

• The Defendant will object that the Particulars of Claim in this action disclose no reasonable cause of action against the Defendant and makes no allegations against the Defendant as to why the Defendant should be liable to the Claimant for the amount claimed.
  
• The Particulars of Claim do not comply with the Civil Procedure Rules as (amongst other things) they do not show how the sum of £xxxx was arrived at and the Particulars of Claim are too vague. The Statement of Claim shows no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim.
  
• The Claimant should, therefore, serve an amended claim to set out the basis in law and fact for their claim as there is no pleaded basis for the claim itself. The Claimant should give full Particulars of the charges they are seeking to recover, identifying each charge, the date and amount of the charge.
  
• The Defendant should then be given the opportunity to defend the proceedings further.
  

In view of the above I would ask that you re-plead you case complying fully with Civil Procedure Rules and that you notify me within 7 days of receipt of this letter of your decision (A copy of which is also being sent to Northampton County Court).

If you decide not to re-plead your case I will make an application to Northampton County Court for an order compelling you to re-plead your case

 

I await your comments.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

Gazbo

 

 

Just send to the solicitor's office. Good work.

[gazbo34]

Quick update, well surprise surprise the 7 days i gave aplins to reply to my letter have come and gone, so what is my next course of action?

How do i go about getting Northampton Court to make Aplins re-plead their case?

Any help appreciated

 

Gazbo

[gazbo34]

As mentioned above have not heard back from Aplins and so after exploring some more(the heads hurting again :grin:) am going to file the following embarrassed defence(online):-

 

1.The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR.

 

2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all.The defendant is embarrassed.

 

Short and sweet eh

 

Am also thinking of sending a copy to the solicitors with the following covering letter:-

 

Dear Sirs

Court Reference xxxxxxxxx

'Herewith copy defence by way of service, the same having been filed with the court.

 

Please serve amended POC and plead your client's case in an appropriate manner within 7 days, so that i am aware of the case i will have to meet at trial.I request that you attach to the particulars any documentation upon which the claimant relies.The matter will be transferred to my home court and the claimant will have to produce the documentation , in any event. In those circumstances you should plead in accordance with the CPR rather than the Northampton County Court regime.

Failure to provide that requested in the time period provided for will result in application to the court.I confirm a copy of this letter will be produced to the court when the question of costs falls to be decided'.

 

I know this is very similiar to the previous letter sent but at least it proves i have tried on numerous occasions to get Aplins to re-plead their case or should i just file the embarrassed defence and leave it at that ???

 

As i understand it i then wait for the AQ to arrive and can then submit it with a request to strike out as part of the directions OR can apply for a strike out via a N244 if the POC are not changed.

 

Am sure someone will correct me if this is incorrect !!!

 

Gazbo

Edited July 5, 2010 by gazbo34
an idiot doing the typing

[gazbo34]

Little bump, got to file my defence in the next few days so if anyone can have a quick look at the above and let me know their thoughts ( Should i just file an embarrassed defence or file an embarrassed defence and send the letter above to the solicitors?)

Any help or comments much appreciated

 

Cheers

 

Gazbo

 

Just a quick thought, is it worth mentioning in my defence that i have requested Aplins to re submit and amend their claim and as it stands have had no reply from them?

[gazbo34]

Just a quick update, filed my defence online and had an acknowledgement from the court saying that the claimant now has 28 days to contact the court if he wishes to proceed or the case will be stayed.

Any further developments and i'll let you all know

 

Thx

 

Gazbo

[littlebert8]

Subbing with great interest.

 

I'm in a similar situation to you regarding vague POC from aplins - h

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/266553-bos-mbna-hilisden-dlc.html

[gazbo34]

Hi Guys and Gals,

Update Time:-

Filed my defence online, similiar to the one posted above and received a confirmation letter back from Northampton (dated 12th July) stating claimant had 28 days to respond etc etc. Received in the post this morning a Notice of Transfer of Proceedings to my local court and an Allocation Questionnaire (Small Claims Track) with a date for filing of 30th August. Am off to work, but will do some homework when i get back, (i know DonkeyB in an earlier post was quite looking forward to placing my non-existant PoC in front of a judge) Any help re my Allocation questionnaire would be greatly appreciated

 

Gazbo

[gazbo34]

Hi Guys and Gals,

Been looking around the site and cant find an AQ similiar to mine.

Have had a look at PT2537's sticky and my question is:-

As my POC are that vague(no mention of an agreement number or if it relates to a CC or a Loan) should i use the rough draft and directions off PT's sticky or can i draft directions asking for Aplins to re-plead their case in accordance with CPR rules? And which would be the best way to proceed

Could do with a helpful cagger pointing me in the right direction as i only have a week left to return my N149.

 

Cheers

Gazbo

Edited August 23, 2010 by gazbo34
Idiot typing

[citizenB]

I am quite surprised that no response was received in respect of the defence and the letter to Aplins asking them to replead.

 

That POC was a joke.

 

So you have an AQ to complete and submit by the 27th I would say as the 30th is a Bank Holiday.

 

What AQ form do you have - N149 or N150 ?

 

In answer to your question above, yes this definitely the time to draft directions requesting that you are given the information you need to submit a fully particularised defence.

 

I will try and round up some help for you.

 

Ok, have sent out S.O.S x 3 on your behalf.

[gh2008]

It will be an N149 as it will be SCT.

 

Now SCT in this case may work against you as SCT is so fluffy.

 

IMHO I would put a stop to the whole thing and make an N244 application asking the Court to Order them to produce a proper POC and paperwork

[citizenB]

Would that need to be submitted with the AQ, gh ?

[gh2008]

if it was me - I would have submitted it before the defence - but certainly I'd do it now. It *should* then stop the timescale for the AQ as well as the result of teh N244 would change the AQ.

 

The Court will see that there is no way this can be properly dealt with.

 

The other way actually a probably better way if you really don't know what it is about would be to submit an app for a 'strike out'

 

With a POC such as that, no proper LBA and a reply to the pityful LBA asking for more info I think you could well get a real strike out with full costs against them

 

I would hold-off submitting the AQ as you DO NOT want it allocated to SCT yet, as lots of the CPR won't apply.

 

Check out CPR for Pre-Action Conduct (that's a Practice Direction) for content of LBA and how they should behave pre N1

 

CPR16 for POC

 

There will be other breaches as well no doubt - those are just off the top of my head

[emandcole]

This might do the trick, was going to suggest adding it to the AQ but GH has explained why that might not be the best option very nicely, thanks GH! Either way Aplins must be forced to pull their finger out, pretty disgraceful for a group of people who are supposed to be solicitors.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Draft Order For Directions

 

1. The claimant shall not later than 16:00 on the (DATE 2010) (Date being 2 weeks after the case management date) file and serve a true copy of each of the documents relied upon in support of this action.
   
2. As the defendant is entirely unaware of the nature of the claim, its origin and how the amount was derived the claimant shall re-plead their Particulars of Claim fully. The original Particulars of Claim are wholly inappropriate and do not explain the nature of any claim.
   
3. The defendant would request that as a minimum the following is provided.
   

a) A true copy of the agreement the defendant is alleged to have completed.

b) Inception terms and conditions as well as all other terms and conditions as varied.

c) A full statement of account detailing the history of any debt to enable the defendant to audit and verify the sum claimed.

d) Any Default Notices or Termination Notices applicable to the running of the account, preferably with proof of service.

e) Any assignment documentation where appropriate, the claimant annexing both Notice of Assignment and the Deed of Assignment. Where the claimant does not wish to provide any Deed of Assignment to the defendant the claimant should instead provide a statement of intent confirming it will allow the court to inspect this Deed.

f) In the event that this claim is the result of an overdraft the defendant expects to receive copies of all facility letters as an overdraft is regulated in part by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

4. In the event that the claimant fails to comply with paragraph 1 of this order the claim shall be struck out and the defendant will be at liberty without further order to apply to the court for judgment and costs on the standard basis, subject to further assessment if not agreed.

 

5. If the claimant does comply with Paragraph 1 then this case shall be allocated to the small claims track, the defendant to file and serve a full and detailed defence by 16:00 on the (DATE 2010) (Date being 6 weeks after the case management date to allow 4 weeks for provision of full defence)

 

Additional Information

 

If the court is in agreement, the defendant respectfully requests that special directions may be given as detailed in the attached draft order.

 

On the (INSERT DATE YOU SENT YOUR REQUESTS OFF) the defendant composed and issued a request for information to the claimant.

 

IF YOU USED A RECORDED DELIVERY SERVICE YOU SHOULD INCLUDE THAT FACT HERE AND DETAIL THE DATE IT WAS RECEIVED BY APLINS, ALSO PROVIDING THE ROYAL MAIL DELIVERY NUMBER AS PROOF.

 

This request was aimed at establishing the nature of the claim in order that the defendant could respond in the appropriate manner. The defendant has provided a copy of this request as attached.

 

(ADD ANYTHING ELSE YOU HAVE DONE TO OBTAIN THE INFO FROM THE CLAIMANT, AGAIN WITH ANY EVIDENCE SUCH AS RECORDED DELIVERY DETAILS AND ALSO ATTACH A COPY. YOU ARE BASICALLY TRYING TO ENSURE THE COURT CAN SEE YOU HAVE DONE ALL YOU CAN TO OBTAIN THE INFO YOURSELF BUT AS THE CLAIMANT IS BEING AWKWARD YOU NOW NEED THE HELP OF THE COURT IN ORDER TO PROCEED)

 

The claimant has failed to respond or to detail any part of the claim and as such the defendant is unable to provide a fully particularised defence and is disadvantaged by the failure of the claimant.

 

Without these essential documents the defendant is unable to respond and the continued failure of the claimant will prevent the court from being able to ascertain the merit of the case. These documents are therefore vital and should be provided without further delay in order that the claim may proceed justly and expeditiously.

 

The defendant therefore looks to the court to approve the above order and awaits the claimant’s response in full.

[gazbo34]

Cheers for the SOS citizenB

It is a N149 (Small Claims Track Questionaire)

Only had a quick glance at the above info coz im skiving in work at the mo!!!

Will have a proper look this evening and get on the case but big thanks for the help so far

Gazbo

[foolishgirl]

Dropping by as requested gazbo.

 

FWIW, I'd go with gh's suggestion - N244 application for immediate strike out. (It should have been submitted before your defence really).

 

The problem I see in responding with an AQ asking for directions is that you are in effect, stating that you know what this claim is all about - you don't! And once you start down this route, it could drag on & on & you find yourself dragged deeper into the mire.

 

Hillesdens are usually not noted for being particularly efficient & this is the first I have heard of Aplins but sounds as though they're out of the same bottle. Hit it on the head now & you may see them off permanently.

 

If you need help with a N244, shout. The form is here:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n244_e.pdf

 

It costs £75.00 but the cost is reclaimable against Hillesdens if successful.

[citizenB]

Thank you gh, emandcole and foolishgirl for responding so swiftly. Sorry.. have to spread it around so please accept IOUs

[gazbo34]

Thanks for the prompt advice guys and gals, been at it for a couple of hours and got about 15 different windows open (heads hurting with information overload!!!)

What happens in respect of my AQ, do i still need to fill it in even though i will be filing an N244 and if so then what do i need to put in Track, Other info etc??

 

Have had a look at the N244 and got a few questions/queries (No surprise there!!!!)

 

N244 Form

1/2 Are easy enough:) Name etc

3 Summary Judgement or Strike Out ??

4 Draft Order ?????

5 At a hearing ??

6/7/ Left Blank

8 Not sure (district judge)???

9 Aplins

10 Attached Witness Statement

11 Sign etc

 

How does this look as a rough draft order?

 

"The defendant is seeking an order for summary judgement pursuant to CPR24 that the claimants claim be struck out pursuant to CPR3.4 on the grounds that their statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim.

Further, the claimant should pay the defendant's costs to be summarily assessed at the hearing of this application.

A witness statement in support of this application is attached.

The defendant seeks an order pursuant to the above stated grounds and knows of no reasons why the disposal of the claimant's claim should progress to trial.

Should the claimant wish to rely on written evidence at the hearing he must file the witness evidence at court and serve witness evidence on the defendant at least 7 days before the hearing of this application."

 

Obviously i will need to do a kick ass Witness Statement,presumably just a diary of events incl letters sent recorded delivery and receipts etc.

 

Any pointers or help will be greatly appreciated

 

Gazbo

[foolishgirl]

Personally, I would go for strike out rather than SJ as the latter implies that you consider the Claimant has provided no case of merit; in this instance, the Claimant has not even provided a proper POC & has not responded to you!

 

Replies to your form queries below:

 

What happens in respect of my AQ, do i still need to fill it in even though i will be filing an N244 and if so then what do i need to put in Track, Other info etc??

 

You really shouldn't fill in the AQ before submitting your app for the reasons gh has stated above. However you will have to fill in an AQ at some stage soon & put on it that you are intending to apply for an application - you'll see the box for this.

N244 Form

1/2 Are easy enough:) Name etc

3 Summary Judgement or Strike Out ??

 

In Box 3 you write something like:

An order that this claim be struck out under CPR 3.4 (2a, 2b) as the Particulars of Claim

have not been sufficiently particularised to enable the defendant to understand what charges he has to answer & the Claimant has not responded to requests made by the Defendant that they submit an amended Particulars of Claim nor have they responded to the Defendant's requests made under CPR31.14.

 

 

4 Draft Order ?????

Write Yes (see below)

 

5 At a hearing ??

Without a hearing

 

6/7/ Left Blank

Yes - Blank

 

8 Not sure (district judge)???

Yes, District Judge

 

9 Aplins

Write Claimant

 

10 Attached Witness Statement

11 Sign etc

 

How does this look as a rough draft order?

 

Suggest your Draft Order looks more like this:

 

Draft Order

 

1. This claim is struck out under CPR 3.4(2) by order of the court

 

2. The Claimant shall pay the Defendant his costs of this case to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

Obviously i will need to do a kick ass Witness Statement,presumably just a diary of events incl letters sent recorded delivery and receipts etc.

 

Try & keep your Box 10 evidence as concise as possible. It's an app not a WS. Don't enclose more copy corresp than is strictly necessary to make your points.

[gh2008]

imho I wouldn't submit the AQ until ordered to.

 

The case should be halted in its tracks with an app for a strike out.

 

worst case is that the DJ orders the AQ - then just submit it with very similar answers to the N244 app

 

and get that app in ASAP!!

 

Agree with FG about not writing an essay.

 

copies of LBA & your reply and quote CPR Rules broken

 

POC quote rules broken

 

shown no cause of action & abuse of process

[gazbo34]

Got the rest of the morning off so will put a draft together and post it up later, once again thx for the excellent advice

 

Gazbo

Edited August 25, 2010 by gazbo34
idiot typing!!!