sussex versus lloyds tsb

[sussex1]

Hi

 

have been on reduced plan for 4 years with lloyds when they just stopped it and said i'd have to go back to usual payments and despite me saying i couldn't afford it refused to listen.

 

As such, I cca'd them and this is the response I received

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/090610-1.jpg

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/090610001-1.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/090610002.jpg

 

 

The account is defiantely pre 04 and i'm not surprised they couldn't lay their hands on the agreement although realise they may do in the future. However I dont want them t continue to add charges and interest now, completely wiping what i have reduced the balance by out very quickly.

 

I would say that the "copy" agreement the yhave sent is non specific to me in every way other than putting my name and address on although this was not the address I was at when the the account was opened.

 

Please can anyone advise as to my next step as I am sure they are wrong in what they are saying as to what they need to provide and therfore have not met their obligations

 

thanks in advance

[cerberusalert]

They are correct in as much as they can send you a reconstructed copy to satisfy your CCA request, however if they were to pursue through the court they would have to produce the original. This begs the question do they in fact have a copy and if they do why don't they produce it now thus saving any future unnecessary conflict?

 

You could wait until they threaten legal action then you could request an original copy under CPUR.

 

Their address

 

 

date ****NOTICE UNDER CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES***

 

reference

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

 

This is in acknowledgement of your letter dated ................and also of .............The contents of which have been duly noted.

Further to you stressing that County Court proceedings will be actioned by yourselves should I fail to make contact/stressing that proccedings are about to be commenced in regard to alleged sums outstanding and alleged owed by me on the above account,I remind you of Civil procedure rules protocols. Nevertheless in my response to your letter please be advised of the following.

 

 

I put forward that you now have a requirement to provide me with;

 

 

1) A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. Please note that a "true copy" as defined by the Consumer Credit Act will not be acceptable in this case, and a copy of the actual executed agreement, including signature, is required.

 

2) All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to

 

1. A transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, payments and both the amounts of credit and any repayments made to the account.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations

3. Where there has been any event in the account history over this period that has required manual intervention by any person, disclosure of any indication or notes that have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to the account held by me with........... is required.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you sent to me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998.

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I make this request to ensure that each party has equal footings which can allow action to proceed speedily fairly and without undue costs or waste of courts time,as defined within Pre-action Practice Directions -Protocols 4.6 of the Civil Procedures Rules.

I will give you 14 days to respond with the above,failure to comply will result in a complaint being made to the Court./In addition to the FOS for any breaches of OFT and CCA codes.This includes breaches as a result of initiating a Country Court claim where failing to provide or produce documents make litigation improper..

Specifically this relates to one or any number of the following;

 

* demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* add any further interest or charges to the account.

* pass/sell the account or outstanding balance to any third party.

* register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.

* issue a default notice related to the account.

 

Furthermore,I reserve my right to make a copy of this letter available for inspection to the Court and Financial/Consumer regulators should you fail to comply with this request.

I await your response,and should you need further clarification on any of the above points,then I suggest that you direct them to your legal department.

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully/Sincerely

 

 

 

 

......................... . (not to be signed) Print name

 

 

Dated..........

[sussex1]

thanks for the reply. They haven't threatened yet but no doubt this will happen soon. In the meantime is it worth doing a SAR?

Also is it at all relavent that the address that they put on the reconstructed "copy agreement" is not the address i had when the account was opened? I may be being picky but would this not mean it is not a true copy?

thanks again

[cerberusalert]

Also is it at all relavent that the address that they put on the reconstructed "copy agreement" is not the address i had when the account was opened?

Yes because you can use it to hang them to dry if they're stupid enough to try for enforcement.

Susan Edwards, Head of Credit Investigations and Enforcement,OFT is very clear:

Therefore it is misleading to state,when complying with a section 77 or 78 request, that the debtor has signed or would have signed (or similar) the enclosed agreement where the debtor has not done so. From 26th May 2008 such a statement will be a breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008(CPRs). Reg 5 of the CPRs states that a commercial practice is a misleading action if it contains false information in relation to the main characteristics of the procduct (amongst other matters) and is likely therefore to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise. The product in question is the credit agreement and the main characterisitics include the 'executiion of the product' Reg 5(5)(d) of the CPRs).

 

Telling a consumer that he signed such an agreement is also a misleading statement about his rights and the risks he might face as covered by Reg 5(4)(k) of the CPRs. It is our view that it is likely that a consumer will take a transactional decision to make a payment under the credit agreement or to refrain from exercising his rights under the agreement as a result of being misled about whether he signed it.

 

Breach of Reg 5 of the CPRs is a criminal offence under Reg 9 and can also be enforced under part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002. Under sec218A of the Enterprise Act, where an application for an Enforcement Order is made the court may require the Respondent 'to provide evidence of the accuracy of any factual claim'(such as a claim that a debtor has signed a credit agreement.

[sussex1]

it would seem best to keep quiet on that then and wait for them to mention court so i can get the letter you suggested off to them

thanks again

[sussex1]

I waited

Edited November 2, 2010 by sussex1

[sussex1]

sorry had to delete links, am having it problems and cant delete personal info from docs. Will edit and add later using a different program

 

 

waited for Lloyds to issue this default notice threatening Court action

 

 

 

Is this default notice correct?

 

and then sent them the letter suggested by Cerberusalert in #2.

 

I subsequently eventually received this, which they sent to wrong address

 

 

in which they still admit they cannot find the agreement and have complied with CCA but hasve made no mention of CPR request.

 

I have also now also got this

 

which is not headed "Default notice" but does say I have deafulted.

 

I'm thinking that as it stands this is not bad news, they haven't found the agreement and given the "true" copy thye sent had an address that I know wasn't where i lived when this was taken out, I am hoping they never will.

 

I'm mindful just to reply pointing out my request was under CPR and not CCA and see what happens. I have not yet had termination notice.

 

Would this be best or should I be doing somehing else?

 

Thanks as always

[rhino666]

If the loan was pre 2004 I doubt very much it'll have the correct prescribed terms for a loan and hasn't been administered properly , but Lloyd's wont tell you that BUT bear it in mind.

 

Here's a BBC article to refer to:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8365018.stm

[rhino666]

I'm in the same boat myself. No CCA but I can't go through pre 2007 thing until I get it and friggin bank wont/can't supply it to confirm and have a shi**y DCA on my case, but I ignore them anyway( pond **** )

[sussex1]

got scanner all sorted so can now post the docs

 

waited for Lloyds to issue this default notice threatening Court action

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/def1-1.jpg

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/def1001.jpg

 

Is this default notice correct?

 

and then sent them the letter suggested by Cerberusalert in #2.

 

I subsequently eventually received this, which they sent to wrong address

 

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/def1002-1.jpg

 

 

in which they still admit they cannot find the agreement and have complied with CCA but have made no mention of CPR request.

 

I have also now also got this

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/def1003-1.jpg

 

which is not headed "Default notice" but does say I have deafulted.

 

I'm thinking that as it stands this is not bad news, they haven't found the agreement and given the "true" copy thye sent had an address that I know wasn't where i lived when this was taken out, I am hoping they never will.

 

I'm mindful just to reply pointing out my request was under CPR and not CCA and see what happens. I have not yet had termination notice.

 

Would this be best or should I be doing somehing else?

 

Thanks as always

Edited November 3, 2010 by sussex1

[rhino666]

I'd wait. Section 78 as I've learnt from here, is not a debtors best friend.

I originally asked for a copy under S78 then realised my mistake and said Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16)

Quoted that the DCA as well and so far nothing.

If they haven't got it , they haven't got it and they WILL need to produce it.

[sussex1]

Lloyds have now passed this onto Solictiors (although they never told me) without replying to the CPR request, any views on the bes way forward? Is it simply to refer them to the previous letters? I have never received a termination notice and the only default notice is posted at the beginning of the thread

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/301110-1.jpg

 

thanks as always

[rhino666]

This is very strange. BUT just because they are solicitors don't panic. A solictor is not a judge. Unless anyone wants to correct me, they're still going to need a CCA to get anywhere.

I'd make an official complaint to the financial ombudsman AND the OFT and do it NOW at least you'll get info straight from the horses mouth. This is where I have to jump out because 1) I don't know what the solictors is going to say 2) my own knowledge on procedures only goes so far.

 

Can anyone else help ?

[sussex1]

Despite the Solicitors letter in #12 saying the account has now been terminated ( I have never received a termination letter), I have now received a new statement, adding more interest. I'm pretty certain they can't add anything to a terminted account so is the account actually terminated or not?

 

I'm mindful just to forward the Sols copies of previous CPR request which Lloyds have failed to answer but with confusion re termination in mind, should I be saying something else? I've read about unlawful termination of an account but I really didn't fully understand it enough.

 

Any ideas?

 

thanks

[RedVixen]

**** are Lloyds in house pet solicitors(they have one qualified solicitor(allegedly) based in the same office as Lloyds collection team if I remember rightly) the chances are the letter has not been anywhere near an actual qualified solicitor. This is a standard first letter form **** you will probably get several others saying that you have not been in contact whether you respond or not - I wouldn't panic just yet alot of people on here have had dealing with **** including myself but mine went elsewhere afterwards not all do though

[diddydicky]

Despite the Solicitors letter in #12 saying the account has now been terminated ( I have never received a termination letter), I have now received a new statement, adding more interest. I'm pretty certain they can't add anything to a terminted account so is the account actually terminated or not?

 

I'm mindful just to forward the Sols copies of previous CPR request which Lloyds have failed to answer but with confusion re termination in mind, should I be saying something else? I've read about unlawful termination of an account but I really didn't fully understand it enough.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

thanks

 

the letter says that the bank has cancelled your credit card NOT terminated the account

 

i would get a SAR off the the bank pronto and see what their records say

[diddydicky]

the default notice - if posted 2nd class- is invalid

 

the DN must state what action will be taken in the event of your failure to comply- it does not state that the account will be terminated- sinmply that they will persue you for the amount claimed

 

You continued use of the card does indeed show that an agreement exists- but does not- as they state show that you agree that it is a legally enforceable agreement

 

thank them for their s78 compliance but point out that you are not aware that you signed an agreement, that you ever received a copy of the agreement from them after allegedly signing it- or that it contained the prescribed terms of the agreement

 

if what they sent in response to s78 is a varied agreement- then point out that this has to be accompanied (quote carey/mcguffick) by a copy of the ORIGINAL SIGNED agreement

 

if you are simply seeking to re make the offer of payments you were paying you could write a separate WP letter making an offer and pointing out that even were the creditor to eventually produce the original signed agreement- the offer if they won the day in court would still be the same

[sussex1]

Thanks for the response DiddyDick, I'm not sure if default notice was sent 2nd class, I haven't got the envelope I'm afraid. I will get SAR to them tomorrow.

What about the "true" copy they sent giving an address I didn't live at for probably a couple of years after account was open? Is this something I should tell them now?

 

thanks again

[diddydicky]

no- one thing that the original agreement MUST contain.............is the name and address of the debtor at the time that he entered the agreement- they may get that from other sources within their organisation for the purposes of a reconstruction..............but any agreement reconstructed or original" that does not contain your name and address as at the time you allegedly signed (entered into the agreement)- would have to be an obvious forgery.........in the sense that it could NOT be the original agreement AND if it were a re construction could not possibly be what the law demands ie:- "a TRUE" reconstruction of the original agreement and you would have them by the short and curlies if you have either an original or reconstruction with a later address on

 

personally- if it were me- i would not "notice" the obvious error- until i was in front of the judge!

 

so that last thing you want to do is alert them to that fact

[rhino666]

Surely all this legal talk can't be enforced by the 'debtor' ( Us being in the right ) unless it goes through a court ( ? )

[diddydicky]

most battles with creditors are won outside of court by the LIP-

 

if the LIP makes the creditor (who has access to the finest legal brains in the land) aware of legal points and arguments that it ought- with all this knowleldge at their fingertips- and the creditor chosses to ignore them- then it is likely the creditor will be on the wrong end of some hard criticism from the judge and certainly an adverse costs decision (see BOS v Roobert Mitchell)

 

many creditors- when faced with these arguments -despite huffing and puffing- then abandon the claim- sometimes at the eleventh hour in the hope of nreaking the defendants will

 

happened to me in one case- never again

[sussex1]

I've heard nothing back from SCM Solicitors although now have Westcots chasing me. No notice of assignment or anything but they have written to me at an address I have never told Lloyds about (all my banking is regitered t my parents address). I'm not concerned about them contacting me as I@e ealt with them in the past and can simply refer them to previous letters to both Lloyds and SCM.

 

However I'm not sure whether I should contact them at all given they have written to an address not on Lloyds file. The letter gives details of the ebt which i do not beleive is correct as they first need to establish they are dealing with the correct person. I'm not ovrly bothered they have this address and I would have replied if they sent it to the address they hold but they are also chasing me about another seperate one that becomes statute barred in a few months to which i also haven't responded and am mindful to wait until they write to the address held by Lloyds.

 

Am I doing the right thing or should I be doing something else?

 

thanks

[rhino666]

Been there done that. Westcot seems to be their preferred choice of disease.

at least they're writing to you rather than phoning you.

I'm not sure how arrangements work between Lloyds and westot, but westcot DO NOT check details before engaging their mouths. ie that they have the legal right

to pursue.

I would say try the FOS, they not fair, impartial, and as they are paid by the industry. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

As for finding out where you are. Its very hard to hide personal details in this day and age.

Ask for proof of the debt is

1) Current

2) Yours

then take it from there

[sussex1]

nothing from Westcotts, SCM or Lloyds re the CPR request or anything but have now heard from Credit Security Ltd with a pretty basic pay in 7 days or else letter.

 

Never herd of these before, any point in replying or should I just sit tight?

 

thanks

[cerberusalert]

Send them this; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?426-A-letter-when-the-account-has-been-passed-to-another-debt-collection-agency