Help please - Debt from an estate due to bereavement

[Bazooka Boo]

The stumbling block is possibly the wording of your letter, the 'writing off' of a debt is possibly what they don't like, but as spamheed has said, you have given them more than enough time to provide proof that there is a lawful claim on the estate, IMO I would leave them off the list of creditors, and focus on those who do have a legitimate interest and claim on the estate, there is very little else you can do, I fail to see how or why you should be forced to delay any further, you need to close this chapter once and for all to be able to grieve properly, I wouldn't entertain them any longer, you have done more than your best here.

[700633744]

UPDATE - received 2 letters this week for a credit card debt were the originators have ignored all cca requests since May and have thus far not proven any debt exists

 

1st one - promising a response by mid december as the investigations are taking longer than expected from cust service team

 

2nd one - oh my god, I have copied this one from the bereavement team word for word:

 

If we are challenged to prove proper execution of a credit agreement, (sometimes long after the agreement was made, or without being shown evidence suggesting errors were made) we may rely on the legal presumption of correctness, formerly expressed in latin as omnia praesumuntur rite et solemniter esse acta (all things are presumed to be correctly done). This presumption is reinforced where the customer has utilised the account in the past and has made payments from time to time.

 

I understand the monies from the estate are now available for distribution, therefore please call freephone xxxxxx to make a debit card payment.

 

I have my own opinion on this but would be interested to find out if this statements holds any merit please?

 

It sounds like they are also dealing with my last letter as a seperate complaint, which it was really as they never fullfilled the original dca and then ignored me! hence the multiple update letters from different people

Edited November 26, 2010 by 700633744
spelling

[ScarletPimpernel]

omnia praesumuntur rite et solemniter esse acta

 

They obviously think they are being clever. However, read this definition of the term from the Oxford University Press:

 

presumption n. A supposition that the law allows or requires to be made. Some presumptions relate to people, e.g. the presumption of innocence and of sanity (see entries below). Others concern events, e.g. the presumption of legality (omnia praesumuntur rite et solemniter esse acta: all things are presumed to have been done correctly and solemnly). Most relate to the interpretation of written documents, particularly statutes (see interpretation of statutes). Almost every presumption is a rebuttable presumption, i.e. it holds good only in the absence of contrary evidence. Thus, the presumption of innocence is destroyed by positive proof of guilt.

 

In other words, their presumption that the agreement was correctly carried out may be rebutted by evidence e.g. the documents not containing the prescribed terms, or otherwise being unenforceable.

[Bazooka Boo]

The use of legal terms or latin phrases designed to intimidate and exploit the debtors lack of knowledge!

If they are stooping as low as having to rely on some latin phrase, then IMO they should be stuck to the back of the queue and ignored, this is beginning to become pathetic! Not you, them!!

If your half as frustrated and annoyed as I am over this then I know exactly what your thinking of doing........(Hamster bedding!)

[Bazooka Boo]

SP taking the practical approach.....

[700633744]

Thanks, weird how theyre being a bit of a smart alec - could I work on the same basis then, I presume the debt unproven exist as they have no proven it to me via the lawful cca request?

[700633744]

haha yes mate, its doing my head in.......... ive got a guinea pig : )

[Bazooka Boo]

Give it to Guinea and take a photo of him using it as bedding, then send them a copy of the picture telling them that is all it is worth...chancers

[spamheed]

In the absence of any proof or documentation we are going to rely on an inappropriate latin phrase, now would you please make a payment.

 

Obviously that Latin phrase will trump the CCA, CPUTR, OFT guidelines, CP Rules, and even the most basic shred of common sense.

 

As previously stated, they have been given ample opportunity to furnish you with proof of their claims, you have been more than generous with your time allowances and extensions to your original deadlines. bThe law only allows them 12 days, you have allowed them 7 months and still they insist on more time, perhaps relying on evolution to provide them with some supporting evidence?

 

I think a line needs to be drawn under this and no further correspondence entered into. after all if you use their understanding of "omnia praesumuntur rite et solemniter esse acta (all things are presumed to be correctly done)" it would indicate that it is acceptable to presume that the execution of the will has been correctly performed in absence of any evidence to the contrary.

[ScarletPimpernel]

You should write back to them:

 

Saluto

 

Thank you for your recent letter in which you quote the phrase "omnia praesumuntur rite et solemniter esse acta". However, I understand that such presumption may be destroyed if there is evidence to the contrary. Your failure to supply a copy of the agreement only strengthens my concern that such evidence may exist. Whilst your use of Latin may be creative, I do not believe that omnia praesumuntur rite et solemniter esse acta is a valid reason for your failure to comply with your obligations at law.

 

I note that (company) is a member of the (BBA/UK Cards Asociation), and thus a subscriber to the Lending Code. The Code states, in regard to communication, that subscribers must present "information in plain language and wherever possible avoiding the use of technical or legal language". You will be aware that the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 makes it an offence for a company to fail to comply with a code to which it subscribes. I do not consider that the use of Latin in a letter to a non-legally qualified lay person meets the Code's standards.

 

My position therefore remains the same: until you comply with my lawful request for a copy agreement I am unable to consider your request for payment. No further correspondence will be entered into until you have complied fully and properly with my request.

 

Fidelis

[700633744]

lovely, thanks very much

[700633744]

I love the salutation by the way - funny

[700633744]

Hi - I have had a final letter today confirming that the company whom claim that the debt is owed to, saying that they cant fulfill the cca request but as the account was active - ie being paid off then I have to make settlement with them: what should I do now please? where do i stand if i refuse payment? should i offer a token payment to clear the debt etc or refuse on the basis that the debt is unproven in my eyes (which it is). Is it worth me posting the reponse up on here. I quote one element: To reitereate the information in this letter, we are currently unable to comply with Mr X s78 request and as such we will not issue ourt proceedings to recover monies owed.

 

Im a little confused now

 

Thanks

[spamheed]

Hi - I have had a final letter today confirming that the company whom claim that the debt is owed to, saying that they cant fulfill the cca request but as the account was active - ie being paid off then I have to make settlement with them: what should I do now please? So because your relative was perhaps being duped into paying off this debt, in doing so - this somehow adds credibility to their claims even though they still cannot substantiate?

 

where do i stand if i refuse payment? In My Opinion, you have offered them every possible opportunity to prove their claims, to provide proof of ownership and proof of your relatives liability, they have failed to even do this - You have a responsibility to the estate to ensure only those with a valid and lawful claim on the estate are paid and that those who have no such valid and lawful claims are not paid.

 

should i offer a token payment to clear the debt etc or refuse on the basis that the debt is unproven in my eyes (which it is). I think you have already answered your question

 

Is it worth me posting the reponse up on here. I quote one element:

 

To reitereate the information in this letter, we are currently unable to comply with Mr X s78 request and as such we will not issue ourt proceedings to recover monies owed. So they are stating that they do not have an agreement with which to fulfill the s78 request but are implying that somehow they could still initiate a case against the deceased or their estate? unbelievable behaviour, tell them enough is enough and send them your final word.

Im a little confused now

 

Thanks

 

You are ating under two directly conflicting sets of obligations.

 

1. you are obliged to act in the best interests of the estate and ensure that only valid and lawful claims on the estate are honoured

2. you are obliged to verify whether a creditor has a legitimate claim against the estate, the CCA 1974 allows a simple solution to allow such a verification and indeed a timescale in which to do so.

 

So by paying off this "creditor" to make them go away - would that be in the best interests of the estate?

 

If they decided to bring a case against you personally it would fail, you will simply need to demonstrate that you have offered the alleged creditor every reasonable opportunity to verify their claim, they have to date failed to do so.

 

I can appreciate how this dragging on is causing you confusion and would suggest you take advice on the matter. either they have a claim or they haven't and if they have, then they should be able to prove it.

[700633744]

Thanks, yes thats what i was thinking to be honest: I will only pay proven debts - this is still unproven. Thery have said they will NOT pursue court proceedings - my only concern now is that I will be harrassed by them as theyve said that theyre not taking this issue to court but then again they arent writing off the debt

[Bazooka Boo]

They have shown you their hand, there is nothing they can do, they do not have a legitimate claim on the estate, you have given them more than enough time in which to produce the requested documents showing your liability towards this, they have admitted they do not have any evidence to support their claims.

I would simply write, thank them for their letter the contents of which have been noted, and as they have failed to supply any evidence of this alleged debt, you have closed your files on this accordingly. You will not be drawn into any further protracted arguments on this matter, should they continue to do so, all letters will be filed and any telephone calls recorded with a view to taking legal action against them.

 

The law on harassment is very clear, so if they are foolish enough to pursue this, then you should seriously consider making a complaint about them to your local Police station for the criminal offence of harassment..

It matters not if they won't write this alleged debt off, it is unenforceable by their own admission, so they don't get a penny end of..

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks, yes thats what i was thinking to be honest: I will only pay proven debts - this is still unproven. Thery have said they will NOT pursue court proceedings - my only concern now is that I will be harrassed by them as theyve said that theyre not taking this issue to court but then again they arent writing off the debt

 

Send them a letter as Bazooka Boo suggests. The chances are that the matter will be dropped, but they could pass on the debt to another company. If they do this, it is unlikely that they would pass on details of any communications that have taken place, so unless they find your address you might not hear any more.

 

A good option may be to put the relevant sum of money to one side from the estate, into an account, noting any estate accounts, as unproven debt amount creditor x company. Put the money in a savings account and when it becomes statute barred, then divide the money as required. By doing this, if anyone tries to show you are liable in some way, you can show what you have done.

[spamheed]

At the end of the day you simply need to be seen as acting in the best interests of the estate and in a fair and even manner with all identified creditors.

 

With all due respect, this really has gone on for long enough, if they had any sort of claim they would have made it and proven it on request, they have failed to do so. Who they going to enforce against?

 

The deceased? I think not

The executor? see above.

 

send them your final word, as you have failed to verify your position etc, this matter is now closed etc and so forth

 

cut them loose, they are trying it on

[700633744]

Hi, I just wanted to update this thread with some advice, what has happened and some golden rules from my own experience for anybody else in a similar scenario:

 

First of all - all bar one of the creditors has been settled and the last creditor is ignoring me - the actual debts were in the region of 50k, after initial cca's to them all only one from 6 replied with the orginal cca. I kept on sending rec delivery letters asking them to write the debt of as they hadn't proved it and therefore the estate wasnt liable - most did after initially still insisiting liability from the estate. In a few instances I offered 10% to clear one debt as it was unproven and another i argued that even they had provided the cca request I thought the charges on the account over the past 6 years were wrong and asked them to look at them again based on the fact that my father had been mis-led etc with this account (even though proven by cca) this was settled for 50% of the actual debt which I offered to save them all the extra work that my complaint required I assume.

 

The advice on here was greatly appreciated and now my mum will soon be mortgage free - thank you so much.

 

For anybody dealingw ith berearvement reading this heres what helped myself:

• take the advice on here
  
• do not phone any creditors
  
• do not assume the debt is liegit because you have a demand, everything must be proven otherwise you are not doing the executor job correctly
  
• ask everybody to prove it, prove it, prove it
  
• be agressive if they cant prove it, ie its unrpoven so its not a liability
  
• be cheeky, this saved the state 1000's in my case
  
• "given the circumstances" creditors listen to cases you build and offers you make
  
• if a debt is more than 10 years old (ie credit card taken out 10 yrs ago) keep challenging the legitimacy of the original agreement
  
• NEVER JUST SETTLE THE DEBT
  

Thanks all