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Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes


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There have been several threads on these Bus lanes but all the OPs seem to disapear after taking the advice given. I'm trying to escalate the matter to stop enforcement and need to hear from anyone that has a PCN issued in Eden Street Kingston regardless of the current state ie cancelled, paid, outstanding.

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green_and_mean

 

I received a PCN for entry into the Eden Street "Bus Gate" on 5 May 2010. I have appealed this on the grounds that this is not a "bus lane" as defined in regulation 23 of the Traffic Signals Regulations 1994.

 

I am awaiting the outcome of my appeal.

 

Cheers

 

boonburger

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green_and_mean

 

I received a PCN for entry into the Eden Street "Bus Gate" on 5 May 2010. I have appealed this on the grounds that this is not a "bus lane" as defined in regulation 23 of the Traffic Signals Regulations 1994.

 

I am awaiting the outcome of my appeal.

 

Cheers

 

boonburger

 

Thanks can you let me know of the outcome I am going to try and get it in the local paper but I need a case to prove my point. ta :)

 

ps if it goes to adjudicator let me know I'll help with the case.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Update: Have had one PCN cancelled Council claim its an issue to do with the wording on the PCN unrelated to any of the appeal points raised. I think this is to avoid going to PATAS and getting the PCNs ruled invalid.

I have raised the matter with the elected Councillor responsible for highways who has failed to respond in two weeks as has the head of the Council department who was sent a copy.

I have started an official complaint using the Council complaints procedure so will see where that gets us.

The recipient of the cancelled PCN has contacted the press so will let you know if it gets published.

FOI has revealled £660,000 of PCNs issued just in the past year so you can see why they are trying to avoid the issue, this could cost them millions if they are forced to refund.

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Update: Have had one PCN cancelled Council claim its an issue to do with the wording on the PCN unrelated to any of the appeal points raised. I think this is to avoid going to PATAS and getting the PCNs ruled invalid.

I have raised the matter with the elected Councillor responsible for highways who has failed to respond in two weeks as has the head of the Council department who was sent a copy.

I have started an official complaint using the Council complaints procedure so will see where that gets us.

The recipient of the cancelled PCN has contacted the press so will let you know if it gets published.

FOI has revealled £660,000 of PCNs issued just in the past year so you can see why they are trying to avoid the issue, this could cost them millions if they are forced to refund.

 

Devious and dishonest buggers are'nt they? This behavour is exactly why the motoring public feel that Councils are more interested in raising revenue than they are with lawful traffic management.

 

Good work G&M.

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I'm not sure of the process but I beleive the LA if enforcing under the LLA 2003 has to take FULL responsibility for moving traffic from the Police so its not just a case of printing new PCNs so it will be interesting to see how this develops. I took a cycle over to kingston today and there are a couple of other locations for these 'bus only' 993 signs so it may be worth checking how they are enforced to.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Thames+Street,+Kingston+Upon+Thames&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=20.962184,67.456055&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Thames+St,+Kingston+Upon+Thames,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.407518,-0.303862&spn=0,0.032938&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.407604,-0.303829&panoid=0Ykg-RvNwz3_Xay06Sde5w&cbp=12,359.43,,1,5

 

The entry to Brook street is also wrong 'buses only' can only be used on the road if the 953 sign is varied to 'buses only' it should be the version with cycles symbol and buses only.

Edited by green_and_mean
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  • 4 weeks later...

I have also received one of these perishing PCNs for "being in a bus lane" in Eden Street on 23 May. I have no recollection of driving in a bus lane and having read these threads and those on another site, I now realise why - that street section is very misleading, I didn't even know I was in the wrong bit. To add to the difficulty, my car is leased and the notice went to the leasing company who pay automatically and then recover the charge from the driver. I had no knowledge of this notice until yesterday and have had no opportunity to contest until now. I have written a letter of appeal following the points of incorrect legislation and wording on the PCN. Also written to the Mayor highlighting the issues of incorrect road markings as well. I hope I can get a refund, I have also been charged an admin fee by my leasing company for them sending me the invoice!

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I have also received one of these perishing PCNs for "being in a bus lane" in Eden Street on 23 May. I have no recollection of driving in a bus lane and having read these threads and those on another site, I now realise why - that street section is very misleading, I didn't even know I was in the wrong bit. To add to the difficulty, my car is leased and the notice went to the leasing company who pay automatically and then recover the charge from the driver. I had no knowledge of this notice until yesterday and have had no opportunity to contest until now. I have written a letter of appeal following the points of incorrect legislation and wording on the PCN. Also written to the Mayor highlighting the issues of incorrect road markings as well. I hope I can get a refund, I have also been charged an admin fee by my leasing company for them sending me the invoice!

 

If you need any advice feel free to ask. :)

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Thank you. I will await a response to my letters. The 2 points in my appeal are wrong legislation (LLA Act 1996) because section does not constitute a bus lane as defined by law (have also highlighted the council's awareness of the problem as detailed in that report of Dec 2008), and, the wording '...enforcement WILL be served', instead of MAY.

I hope I understood all the previous postings correctly on this matter!

 

I wonder if Boonburger's PCN was cancelled?

My difficulty may be that the PCN has already been paid so I need a refund rather than a cancellation.

Fingers crossed.

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Thank you. I will await a response to my letters. The 2 points in my appeal are wrong legislation (LLA Act 1996) because section does not constitute a bus lane as defined by law (have also highlighted the council's awareness of the problem as detailed in that report of Dec 2008), and, the wording '...enforcement WILL be served', instead of MAY.

I hope I understood all the previous postings correctly on this matter!

 

I wonder if Boonburger's PCN was cancelled?

My difficulty may be that the PCN has already been paid so I need a refund rather than a cancellation.

Fingers crossed.

 

You could point out that what they are doing is fraud:

Fraud act 2006

 

Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if—

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—

(a) the person making the representation, or

(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

 

 

They lied to your hire company and stated you had been in a Bus lane to fraudulently gain money.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Thank you. I will await a response to my letters. The 2 points in my appeal are wrong legislation (LLA Act 1996) because section does not constitute a bus lane as defined by law (have also highlighted the council's awareness of the problem as detailed in that report of Dec 2008), and, the wording '...enforcement WILL be served', instead of MAY.

I hope I understood all the previous postings correctly on this matter!

 

I wonder if Boonburger's PCN was cancelled?

My difficulty may be that the PCN has already been paid so I need a refund rather than a cancellation.

Fingers crossed.

 

Check the wording in PCN re para 2. I do have rather conflicting evidence from RBK and DfT re the plans for this Bus Lane and it is apparent that RBK were told to revise their plans to include the diagram 1048.4 legend. Therefore, RBK are knowingly collecting revenue from their wrong signage. Try Audit Commission and Ombudsman. RBK know that the signage is wrong! Further revelations should follow.icon6.gif

 

In view of this, can only agree with G and M re his above comments, which will please him, and me!

 

As regards your having paid the hire company, this is not an easy situation. For sure, you will receive nothing from RBK! Pending what approach you use to the hire company, they may wish to reimburse you plus the admin fee (?) but then they would be in a difficult position whereby THEY would be seeking reimbursement! I hardly think this is a realistic scenario. Personally, I would be looking at a small claims application on the basis that the council allegedly collected monies unjustly and in the full knowledge that their signage was wrong i.e. according to the DfT. You should also consider conjoining the hire firm as a co-defendant; however, I would write to the firm concerned in the first instance, pointing out what is wrong with the lane and referring them to the story in the Press, and Dft response, and see what they say. If you need any further assistance, please just ask.icon7.gif

Edited by HYMN AND MI
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I have also received one of these perishing PCNs for "being in a bus lane" in Eden Street on 23 May. I have no recollection of driving in a bus lane and having read these threads and those on another site, I now realise why - that street section is very misleading, I didn't even know I was in the wrong bit. To add to the difficulty, my car is leased and the notice went to the leasing company who pay automatically and then recover the charge from the driver. I had no knowledge of this notice until yesterday and have had no opportunity to contest until now. I have written a letter of appeal following the points of incorrect legislation and wording on the PCN. Also written to the Mayor highlighting the issues of incorrect road markings as well. I hope I can get a refund, I have also been charged an admin fee by my leasing company for them sending me the invoice!

 

How much was the fee? Not quite sure they can do that! A fine is a fine by statute! The more I read of your story, I am inclined to sue the both of them!

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Thank you. I will await a response to my letters. The 2 points in my appeal are wrong legislation (LLA Act 1996) because section does not constitute a bus lane as defined by law (have also highlighted the council's awareness of the problem as detailed in that report of Dec 2008), and, the wording '...enforcement WILL be served', instead of MAY.

I hope I understood all the previous postings correctly on this matter!

 

I wonder if Boonburger's PCN was cancelled?

My difficulty may be that the PCN has already been paid so I need a refund rather than a cancellation.

Fingers crossed.

 

img-resized.png Reduced: 65% of original size [ 1102 x 1600 ] - Click to view full image

259kcg5.png

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The response from DFt completely contradicts this explanation re the legend on the road: it should be and should have been diagram 1048.4 and RBK know it! This is time to stand up and be counted! Please use all options to get this resolved. My only impulse is for everyone to get reimbursed because of this unjust enrichment!

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Dear

 

Thank you for your email.

 

I have checked the papers in the authorisation file for this contra-flow bus lane and I can confirm that it was pointed out to the authority that the road markings shown on the drawing that they had submitted with their authorisation application, did not comply with diagram 1048.4 in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 and that they must be revised.

 

Kind regards

 

Traffic Signs Mailbox

 

This is like The Ipcress File! I know whom I believe, Mr. Palmer!

icon6.gif

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I'm not sure of the process but I beleive the LA if enforcing under the LLA 2003 has to take FULL responsibility for moving traffic from the Police so its not just a case of printing new PCNs so it will be interesting to see how this develops. I took a cycle over to kingston today and there are a couple of other locations for these 'bus only' 993 signs so it may be worth checking how they are enforced to.

 

Thames Street, Kingston Upon Thames - Google Maps

 

The entry to Brook street is also wrong 'buses only' can only be used on the road if the 953 sign is varied to 'buses only' it should be the version with cycles symbol and buses only.

 

Also, if you turn it round, there is yet another non-compliant lane by the Renault garage facing Surbiton! Road legend is wrong and no warning sign! And positioning!

 

Have checked the signs on Wheatfield Way this evening: all concur with google. Also, there will be NO more PCN's for the infamous Eden Street with Union Street lane at the moment - the road is closed for gas works! Perhaps the CCTV operator has some spare time to help paint the proper legend on the road once they've dug it up and put it together again.icon2.gificon10.gif

Edited by HYMN AND MI
Have checked signs.
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People treat bus lanes very strangely. There is one in Tunbridge Wells which operates between 7 & 7 Mon to Fri, but after 7 people still dont use it and there is a queue of traffic, I jst drive down it and the looks I get from people.

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People treat bus lanes very strangely. There is one in Tunbridge Wells which operates between 7 & 7 Mon to Fri, but after 7 people still dont use it and there is a queue of traffic, I jst drive down it and the looks I get from people.

 

Are they the same looks you get from sheep, I wonder!?:lol:

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Are they the same looks you get from sheep, I wonder!?:lol:

 

Wot as they spot the approach, equipped with wellies and/or velcro knee pads?

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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People treat bus lanes very strangely. There is one in Tunbridge Wells which operates between 7 & 7 Mon to Fri, but after 7 people still dont use it and there is a queue of traffic, I jst drive down it and the looks I get from people.

 

It's not unusual. Most of the bus lanes in Newport (Gwent) operate from 0700 until 1030 and 1530 until 1900. I always drive down them outside of those times just to make a point and hardly anyone ever follows. 99% of all other drivers change lanes to avoid them and end up in a queue of traffic at lights and junctions.

 

You sometimes wonder whether it's too difficult to read the road signs.

MBNA - Agreed to refund £970 in full without conditions. Cheque received Sat 5th Aug.:D

Lloyds - Settled for an undisclosed sum.:D

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It's not unusual. Most of the bus lanes in Newport (Gwent) operate from 0700 until 1030 and 1530 until 1900. I always drive down them outside of those times just to make a point and hardly anyone ever follows. 99% of all other drivers change lanes to avoid them and end up in a queue of traffic at lights and junctions.

 

You sometimes wonder whether it's too difficult to read the road signs.

 

I know. The same thing happens when I go to Guildford every Sunday when the lanes operate Monday to Saturday! They stare at you as if you're in the wrong!

 

Say hello to that large complex of lanes near the Celtic Manor Hotel, commonly known as the M4, I believe!

 

Croeso:-)

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