Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes

[HYMN AND MI]

This bus lane is very close to my heart, as it were. In fact, there are now quite a few people challenging this contravention at this location, the majority of which are winning. On signage and/or lack of evidence of signage on the day in question. Will post up all case numbers later tonight so you can research the new PATAS register and see for yourself.

 

I would advise at the moment:

 

1. Ask for all photographs. 2. Ask for CEO's notes. 3. Ask to see the video. 4. Ask for the Traffic Management Order with all schedules, amendments and diagrams by pdf.

 

When I say "ask", I mean "require". This will put the matter on hold, at least. Re the video: they need to show the signage in place on the day and quite a few cases do not. Each case is different so I do not always agree with template letters. There is another case being decided today so I will get back re that one, too.

[smkhairat]

I called up yesterday to request evidence, they said they will send me still photos. Are you saying I should call them again and request all what u said in the thread above? Also in relation to requesting video evidence do i go to kingston to watch it or do they send it on a cd?

 

and what shall i do once i request the ceo notes and traffic management order?

 

SOrry for all the questions, I wana get all this sorted out this weekend. I will be visiting then asap to see video evidence, is there anything i should look out for in terms of signage etc.. when watching the video.

 

Thanks for your help.

[HYMN AND MI]

No more calls: e-mails instead. See these cases for what you should be looking for:

 

2110100606, 2100299918, 2100086214: refused; 211009910A: allowed; 2100116712: allowed; 2110098322, 2110128172, 21100649871: undecided; 2100638489: allowed; 2100129623: allowed; 210009976A: allowed; 210030797A: allowed. Particularly the last one in which they did not provide proper evidence from the river end camera. that case is on this forum a page back under one of my posts.

 

Look for evidence of signage, evidence of you in relation to signs. Take a witness if possible and do not make any comment to them whatsoever. Ask them for a copy. We need to see the Order in case they have amended it! Just in case!

 

When you get notes, PM them if you cannot post here. Re order: just confirm any recent amendment, if any.

 

Three cases are undecided and there is another one today to be decided. So far, in other words, two thirds have been successful.

Edited April 1, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[smkhairat]

Hi Hymn,

 

they do not provide an email address on either the front or back of the PCN, the only option is to call a number provided on the back of the PCN. I have already requested evidence and they said they will provide still images?

 

I guess i should go and see the video evidence aswell then?

 

once again thanks for your advice and i will hgave a look at those cases tonight

[HYMN AND MI]

Go on their website, PCN, How to appeal, fill in online, but make it clear you are only enquiring, is one option.

[green_and_mean]

When you view the video insist on seeing the footage that shows the signage you passed not just the contravention, it should be at both the start and end of the tape. If they refuse or are unable to do so make a note of the persons name showing the tape and use it as part of your appeal.

[HYMN AND MI]

The current Order has not been amended, I can confirm. Just make sure, when you view the video, that you are not at a disadvantage!

[smkhairat]

Hi Guys,

 

Just a quick update, I have emailed RBK and requested images, I have also arranged a time to go and view the video.

 

In the mean time is there anything else I should do?

 

Thanks

[smkhairat]

HYMN and MI, I didnt undertsand your last post?

[HYMN AND MI]

Take someone with you preferably. They will cerainly have witnesses on their side in case anything is said. Make no comment about the footage.

[smkhairat]

Ok I will go and view the footage this weekend with a witness and get back to you, I just received the still images i requested from RBK this morning

 

they have sent me two images from the camera located in st james street, these two images show my car entering the so called bus lane from the west side of eden street (i.e. between the crossroads with Union Street and st james street).

 

I am worried as the still images show the words bus lane painted on the road and the bus lane is clearly painted red, i canot undertsand how i did not even see the signs or realise that it was a bus lane. Would it help if i scanned the images and loaded up on here?

[HYMN AND MI]

If you can scan and post, yes, please do so.

[smkhairat]

Hi Guys,

 

Here are the still images they sent me.

 

Please any advice on what to do next, I have arranged to go and watch the video on monday, is there anything else i should do in the meantime?

 

Once again thank you all for your advice.

IMG (2).pdf

[green_and_mean]

You appear to be bang to rights as far as the actual contravention is concerned but you should carry on the argument its not enforceable as a bus lane using the LLA 1996.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/pdfs/ukla_19960009_en.pdf

 

PART II

Bus LANES

Interpretation of Part II.

—(1) In this Part of this Act—

"the Act of 1991" means the Road Traffic Act 1991;

"bus lane" has the meaning given in regulation 23 of the Traffic Signs

Regulations 1994 and any regulation amending or revoking and

re-enacting that regulation;

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/23/made

 

Makes no reference to the signs they use in the definition of a bus lane. They have also shot themselves in the foot by claiming the bus lane ends at Brook Street as the 'end of bus lane' sign is missing at this location, it is in fact 100m down the road after Heals. The mini roundabout cannot be a part of the bus lane so the lane must end where they claim and re start therefore even if there argument about the contra flow being legal is correct the 'end of bus lane' sign being missing invalidates the lane. In addition the cycle logo is missing from the road. Also stick in that by the time you saw the sign the bus lane had already started as it extends some 10m before the sign as shown in their lovely diagram.

Edited April 8, 2011 by green_and_mean

[smkhairat]

Hi Green and Mean,

 

Thanks for the quick response, I noticed that you previously drafted an appeal letter stating its not enforceable as a bus lane using the LLA 1996. Do i have your permission to use this letter and then just add in the extra points you made in your last post as I am restricted for time and dont have the time to start a brand new appeal letter from scratch.

 

Also where does Kingston Council say the bus lane ends in Brook street? I havent been back since so I am not sure if there is an end of bus lane sign there or not, knowing how cunning RKB is I wouldn't be surprised if there is one there.

 

Also sahll i just hit them with all the points in the same letter or should i send the appeal letter stating that the lane is non enforecable and wait to see what they say then based on that hit them with the other points?

 

Sorry for all the questions jus wana get it right.

 

Thanks again.

[smkhairat]

Just to add that there is now a Turn Right Arrow painted on the ground and a Turn Right + Arrow road marking about 10 yards south of that, just before the No Left Turn sign (see pic attached)

 

Does this invalidate my argument of not seing the 953 signs until i was already in the bus lane?

 

Thanks

[green_and_mean]

Hi Green and Mean,

 

Thanks for the quick response, I noticed that you previously drafted an appeal letter stating its not enforceable as a bus lane using the LLA 1996. Do i have your permission to use this letter and then just add in the extra points you made in your last post as I am restricted for time and dont have the time to start a brand new appeal letter from scratch.

 

Also where does Kingston Council say the bus lane ends in Brook street? I havent been back since so I am not sure if there is an end of bus lane sign there or not, knowing how cunning RKB is I wouldn't be surprised if there is one there.

 

Also sahll i just hit them with all the points in the same letter or should i send the appeal letter stating that the lane is non enforecable and wait to see what they say then based on that hit them with the other points?

 

Sorry for all the questions jus wana get it right.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

Yes feel free to use the letter. They state the bus lane ends at the mini roundabout and I think thats what the traffic order says but the sign is just past Heals as there is a even dodgier bit of bus lane from the mini roundabout to opposite McDonalds. The key points are as follows:

 

Its the wrong legislation and/or

The bus lane starts before the sign

The lane is signed to allow cycles but its not on the road as its meant to be by law

The TMO says you can drive in the lane to drop off or unload:

 

Exemptions - Bus Lanes

 

4. (1) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply so as to prevent a vehicle being in a bus lane

if and for as long as necessary:-

(a) to enable a person to get on or off the vehicle; or

(b) to enable goods to be loaded on to or unloaded from the vehicle;

if and in so far as the activity is not prohibited by the provisions of any other Order.

 

There is no end of bus lane sign (not actually required in a contra flow but put it in anyway they are not that bright!)

They changed cameras so the evidence is not continous (not that relevant but poor practice anyway)

 

Also don't do anything until the next letter hopefully they will screw up and send the enforcement notice before the end of the period they gave you in the letter.

[green_and_mean]

Just to add that there is now a Turn Right Arrow painted on the ground and a Turn Right + Arrow road marking about 10 yards south of that, just before the No Left Turn sign (see pic attached)

 

Does this invalidate my argument of not seing the 953 signs until i was already in the bus lane?

 

Thanks[ATTACH=CONFIG]26534[/ATTACH]

 

The arrow on the road is meaningless if it says 'turn right' on the road as well its unlawfully placed as it means ALL vehicular traffic should turn right (including buses and taxis) and if it doesn't its pointless (excuse the pun).

[smkhairat]

You mean don't send my appeal letter in just yet?

[green_and_mean]

No wait for the enforcement notice they will just reject anything before that anyway.

[HYMN AND MI]

While I agree with G and M's possible arguments, I do not see any harm in submitting another informal challenge having read their letter.

Just one point re the lack of cycle legend (and, indeed, taxi), it is a matter of ironic record that RBK did actually want 1048.4 placed on the road and it was the DfT who refused and authorised the current 1048, so this will be an uphill argument. However, it is quite correct that the 953 and 953.2 should be placed at the inception of the lane and the legend should start after its current position. So, basically, the authorised legend is contrary to TSRGD and all DfT guidance. Nice one but difficult to convince an adjudicator. One case is over 9 weeks overdue for a decision.

 

If anyone wants the full correspondence re this authorisation, PM me an e-mail address please.

[green_and_mean]

While I agree with G and M's possible arguments, I do not see any harm in submitting another informal challenge having read their letter.

 

Seems little point unless he intends to pay at some point its just delaying the progression to the next stage and drawing the whole thing out longer than needed.

[HYMN AND MI]

Up to the OP, really. The last Enforcement Notice I saw is clearly flawed. But, of course, the price is doubled by this stage. And it would help to have had a decision by now from PATAS!

 

Do not believe a contra flow needs an end of bus lane sign?

 

Another challenge=another opportunity to mess up on part of council. Hence the tactic. They will need to reply, of course.

Edited April 8, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[green_and_mean]

Do not believe a contra flow needs an end of bus lane sign?

 

 

Can't find any indication one is required and if you think about it why would you need one? A normal with flow bus lane needs one so traffic can move back into the left hand lane when the lane ends, in a contra flow the only vehicles to see the 'end of' sign are those permitted to be there so why would they care if the lane ends?

[tubbsy]

We have just received one of these darn pcn's for driving in a bus lane in Eden Street last weekend. It doesn't state where in Eden street but I have a feeling, from reading previous posts that it is where you can no longer turn left to go into the m&s multistorey and are supposed to turn right. We hadn't been to Kingston in ages and by the time we realised we couldn't turn left to go to the car park, we had to drive straight on up to the mini roundabout to then turn round, come back and turn right into the turning for the car park. From what I've read, our first course of action should be to ask for evidence of us doing this and say that the sign for the bus lane is in fact after the bus lane has begun? We had no idea we were in a bus lane.

Any advice appreciated for someone who has very little time to be dealing with this but refuses to pay a fine which I believe we shouldn't have received.

Thanks!