Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes

[HYMN AND MI]

Yes but you are arguing the Councils case when there is no case to answer. The fact is the signs that are there authorised or not are not a Bus Lane as prescribed by the LLA 1996. The pure fact that you have quoted 2 cases that have been refused which goes to show that relying on technical arguments is a gamble.

 

Actually, if you care to look at the decisions, the two cases allowed were based on the signage argument and the two refused were entirely due to other reasons.

[green_and_mean]

Actually, if you care to look at the decisions, the two cases allowed were based on the signage argument and the two refused were entirely due to other reasons.

 

Strange then that if the signage hasn't changed that the others were refused, since the same signage details would be submitted to the adjudicator?

[HYMN AND MI]

Strange then that if the signage hasn't changed that the others were refused, since the same signage details would be submitted to the adjudicator?

 

I can do not better than state the two cases which were refused were based on arguments re not receiving the PCN or being in a bus stand, rather than a bus lane. If readers wish to access the same, the details are given.

Edited October 14, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[MAXY44]

So you entered at the start by the Church and drove past Maplins towards the old post office......correct?

 

Church!? Maplin!? - Sorry, didn't see them.

 

You seem to know the area well.

 

I was coming from Surbiton on the A307 (the long one next to the river). At Roundabout - entered Hight Street with Police Station to my right. Carried on towards Eden Street - where it meets with Union Street (across). Followed Eden Street all the way down until it meets with FAIRFILED W (where I dropped off the family).

 

On Google Satellite view - it looks "DIFFERENT" from what it is actually at the moment.

 

On Google it shows "NO LEFT TURN AHEAD" - when - IN FACT - now it shows "TURN RIGHT".

 

Big writing with "BUSES ONLY - BUSES" - is no longer there. I think it was possible to turn into Union Street - not sure if now you can as there are TWO big signs stating NO LEFT TURN.

 

It would help me lot to see previous appeal letters but I have a couple of questions - please

 

TMA states that the sign for a bus lane must be placed 30 meters before the beginning of such bus lane. There is one but some 10 meters AFTER the bus lane starts. Is this a "normal" bus lane!?

 

The PCN gives my car make - no colour -although TMA states that all details should be there and ALSO photographic evidence - there isn't.

 

Yes, I admit, I was wrong and blind (stupid) but it is also fair to state that signs (too many and the wrong type in my opinion, are rather confusing).

 

What do the expert suggest, please!?

[MAXY44]

[HYMN AND MI]

Signs to be placed only to indicate the effect of a statutory prohibition

7. - (1) Except as provided by paragraph (3), the signs to which this paragraph applies may be placed on or near a road only to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, byelaw or notice ("the effect of a statutory provision") which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic.

 

(2) Paragraph (1) applies to -

• (a) the signs shown in diagrams 606, 607, 609, 612, 613, 614, 616, 617, 618, 618.1, 618.2, 618.3, 618.3A, 618.4, 619, 619.1, 619.2, 620, 620.1, 622.1A, 622.2, 622.4, 622.5, 622.6, 622.7, 622.8, 622.9, 625.1, 626.2A, 627.1, 629, 629A, 629.1, 629.2, 629.2A, 632, 636, 636.1, 636.2, 637.1, 637.2, 637.3, 638, 638.1, 639, 639.1B, 640, 640.2A, 640.3, 640.4, 640.5, 642, 642.2A, 642.3, 646, 647, 650.1, 650.2, 650.3, 651, 652, 660, 660.3, 660.4, 660.5, 660.6, 660.7, 661A, 661.1, 661.2A, 661.3A, 661.4, 662, 663, 663.1, 664, 665, 666, 667, 667.1, 667.2, 668, 668.1, 668.2, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 804.1, 804.2, 804.3, 804.4, 810, 818.2, 818.3, 818.4, 951, 952, 953, 953.1, 953.2, 954, 954.2, 954.3, 954.4, 954.5, 954.6, 954.7, 955, 956, 957, 958, 958.1, 959, 959.1, 960, 960.1, 961, 962, 962.2, 963, 963.2, 963.3, 964, 969, 1017, 1018.1, 1019, 1020.1, 1028.2, 1028.3 (except when used in conjunction with the sign shown in diagram 786), 1028.4, 1032, 1033, 1036.1, 1036.2, 1037.1, 1046, 1048, 1048.1, 1048.2, 1048.3, 1048.4, 1049, 1049.1, 1050, 1065, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010.1, 2010.2, 2107, 2108, 2123, 2124, 5001.1, 5001.2, 5003, 5003.1, 5005, 5005.1, 7201, 7201.1, 7203.1, 7204, 7207, 7210, 7211.1, 7212, 7213, 7214, 7215, 7216, 7217, 7218, 7220, 7230, 7231, 7232, 7233, 7234, 7235, 7260, 7261, 7282, 7283, 7283.1, 7284, 7284.1 and 7290; and
   
  (b) any sign which, by virtue of regulation 17 and item 31 of Schedule 16, incorporates as a symbol a sign shown in a diagram specified in sub-paragraph (a).
  
  

(3) A sign shown in a diagram specified in an item in column (2) of the Table may be placed at a site or in circumstances specified in column (3) of that item notwithstanding that it does not at that site or in those circumstances indicate the effect of a statutory provision.

 

I would suggest asking RBK what order this new legend applies to because it is new and dopes not belong to previous order or plans. What are the pole signs& legends in place now at the commencement of the contra flow lane, as they had previously dug up the road some months back for gas works? Please post up pics, if possible, privately? and of all signs. Forget what Google had: does not help. Also, when it was done? I will have a look tomorrow morning.

Edited October 16, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[frontseatdriver]

The only sign which has changed is the 'NO LEFT TURN AHEAD' which has been swapped for the 'TURN RIGHT & arrow' legend - all other signs remain. Apparently the reasoning for the TURN RIGHT change is that there have been a number of accidents with pedestirans in the area?!

 

MAXY44 - are you from out of the area? What time was the PCN issued for (an important question as at some times it seems that the lane is not reserved for buses)? If you want pictures you need to contact the council to arrange an appointment to see the video (which they won't be very helpful about) or they will send you photos to show you on that side of the road.

 

Question for all - I received my threat of enforcement notice within 14 days on 1st October - do we know if they are referring to working days or days including weekends??

[MAXY44]

I live in Ealing and we just visited friends in Surbiton. I should say that I know my way around Kingston well but we only visit the place twice a year.

The PCN was issued at 12:39 and it was a Sunday.

In fact, at 11:55 we were in Surbiton buying a gift for my firend. Afterwards we visited him (it must have been a VERY short visit).

Photographic evidence with the PCN has not been provided. THERE IS NO sign (mentioning a bus lane) before the lane starts.

 

[green_and_mean]

There does not need to be a sign in advance because its not a bus lane its a route restricted to certain types of vehicle ie buses taxis and cycles, which is why the PCN is invalid.

[Jenny.Wren]

I came across this post after a bus lane search.

 

Yesterday I received a PCN "Code 34J - Vehicle seen contravening Bus Lane Regulations". Sat 16 October at 17.57, Eden Street.

 

I was horrified. I know Kingston well and would never go in a bus lane. I see the photo above and am really confused. I went up this road and turned around at the roundabout at the end and came back (have done this numerous times over the years).

 

I have seen the comment above from green_and_mean "There does not need to be a sign in advance because its not a bus lane its a route restricted to certain types of vehicle ie buses taxis and cycles, which is why the PCN is invalid"

 

Can anyone advise if there is anything I can do (except avoid this road in the future)! Cant say I've even seen a sign but I suppose I've always assumed bus lanes are red and I always see cars going up and down this road (no doubt they've all got PCN'S)!

 

Thank you.

 

Having studied the photo above and reading all the posts, I can see a blue bus sign so I guess I entered a "bus lane" as I approached the roundabout (near the old post office). Looks like I was in the wrong then?

Edited October 28, 2010 by Jenny.Wren

[HYMN AND MI]

I came across this post after a bus lane search.

 

Yesterday I received a PCN "Code 34J - Vehicle seen contravening Bus Lane Regulations". Sat 16 October at 17.57, Eden Street.

 

I was horrified. I know Kingston well and would never go in a bus lane. I see the photo above and am really confused. I went up this road and turned around at the roundabout at the end and came back (have done this numerous times over the years).

 

I have seen the comment above from green_and_mean "There does not need to be a sign in advance because its not a bus lane its a route restricted to certain types of vehicle ie buses taxis and cycles, which is why the PCN is invalid"

 

Can anyone advise if there is anything I can do (except avoid this road in the future)! Cant say I've even seen a sign but I suppose I've always assumed bus lanes are red and I always see cars going up and down this road (no doubt they've all got PCN'S)!

 

Thank you.

 

Having studied the photo above and reading all the posts, I can see a blue bus sign so I guess I entered a "bus lane" as I approached the roundabout (near the old post office). Looks like I was in the wrong then?

 

The argument quoted above would assume that the Council have not used the correct contravention code (33) and the wrong Act under which enforcement is taking place, all of which would need to be tested at PATAS. The council have now added a mandatory road legend re the right turn, which seems to be nonsensical as it would apply to all traffic. I would ask them when they did this and why and if this is included in an order. Personally, I would not pay and would rely on all previous arguments, but others may not agree.

 

The current reality is that you have received a PCN re code 34 j and it would seem sensible to fight it on these terms which would, in my view, include the lack of an advance warning sign and a turn right instruction which would appear to be nonsensical for reasons outlined above.

Edited October 28, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[Jenny.Wren]

Thank you for replying. I have read all the replies and it all seems a bit above me and legal. I'm not really sure what I would be arguing against

[frontseatdriver]

Thank you for replying. I have read all the replies and it all seems a bit above me and legal. I'm not really sure what I would be arguing against

 

As RBK are treating that section of road as a bus lane, you just need to argue that you were not aware that is a bus lane and that it is not treated as a bus lane as they direct.

 

For example - on the website the bus lane is operational 'at all times' but the road in which motorists should turn right, St James Road, is often blocked off and RBK have admitted that at these times it is permissible to use the 'bus lane'. Therefore if you regularly drive in Kingston of an evening (as I do) you would often use this stretch of road and face no penalty.

 

- A bus lane should have advance warning - approaching the 'bus lane' from High Street there is nothing to advise that you are approaching the bus lane.

 

- There is a technical argument about the road marking - this is well explained on the ticket fighter website.

 

As you state that you were not aware that there is a bus lane in that position and you know the area well you should fight this penalty charge - I dread to think how many people are being slapped with these fines and aren't even aware that there is a bus lane there - these fines are unjust as people are unaware that there is the chance that they are contravening anything!

[HYMN AND MI]

I will have a good look at the signs as I have just come back from holiday and see what can be drafted.

[frontseatdriver]

The council have now added a mandatory road legend re the right turn, which seems to be nonsensical as it would apply to all traffic. I would ask them when they did this and why and if this is included in an order.

 

The road into which you can turn right is also now regularly closed since the students are back in town the Hippodrome is open most nights!

[Jenny.Wren]

I will have a good look at the signs as I have just come back from holiday and see what can be drafted.

 

I would appreciate that.

 

Do I need to pay when I object and then claim a refund? I'm worried that if I object and don't pay, I will get stung for the full £120 when I fall out of the 14 day period to pay the £60.

[Jenny.Wren]

As you state that you were not aware that there is a bus lane in that position and you know the area well you should fight this penalty charge - I dread to think how many people are being slapped with these fines and aren't even aware that there is a bus lane there - these fines are unjust as people are unaware that there is the chance that they are contravening anything!

 

I agree. I've been in and out of Kingston all my life. When I told my husband about the "bus lane" he didn't know either what I was talking about.

 

As for advance warning - how do they expect us to see that small blue sign - just as you enter the "bus lane" whilst trying to avoid college jay walkers and traffic crossing you at all angles!!!

[frontseatdriver]

The sign that is within the bus lane is not sufficient to be advance warning - there should be some on the approcach. All my friends of the area also had no idea and on approaching it by foot on Tuesday night a friend I was with was looking out for it and he still could not see it until we were right on it!

 

This is why the lane penalties need to be fought tooth and nail as otherwise the Council will keep subsidising their budget with money from an honest mistake!

[HYMN AND MI]

I would appreciate that.

 

Do I need to pay when I object and then claim a refund? I'm worried that if I object and don't pay, I will get stung for the full £120 when I fall out of the 14 day period to pay the £60.

 

You cannot pay and then claim a refund: once you pay, normally, the case is closed. Do not pay if you wish to contest this, even informally at this stage..............

 

I suggest the following:

 

1. Just before the 14 day period expires i.e. from the date of the notice, e-mail them for all video and foto evidence.

2. Instruct them to forward you a copy of the Traffic Management Order for the said lane, plans plus the Turn Right legend and information when that was added and why.

 

This will buy you time since the council will normally extend the discount period. Also, could you please confirm from which direction you entered the bus lane? Lastly, please post up the PCN minus your personal/car details and number etc.

Edited October 28, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[Jenny.Wren]

I came into Kingston with the police station on my right. Past Zizzi's on my right and over the crossing. - Does that help or make a difference?

 

Re contesting. If I contest, does the £60 reduced fee go "on hold"?

 

If I were not successful - do I end up paying the £60 fee or £120 fee? Thanks for any clarification.

 

When you talk about the Turn Right legend - i assume that's the wording in the road? So basically that is supposed to tell us we are entering a bus lane and to turn right??? If so, that's mad and unacceptable.

[frontseatdriver]

I came into Kingston with the police station on my right. Past Zizzi's on my right and over the crossing. - Does that help or make a difference?

 

Re contesting. If I contest, does the £60 reduced fee go "on hold"?

 

If I were not successful - do I end up paying the £60 fee or £120 fee? Thanks for any clarification.

 

When you talk about the Turn Right legend - i assume that's the wording in the road? So basically that is supposed to tell us we are entering a bus lane and to turn right??? If so, that's mad and unacceptable.

 

when the matter gets put on hold they 'freeze' the £60 and you have a further 14 days to pay from the date of any response they give you (these responses will usually take about 3 months to appear) so you have a much prolonged period over which the £60 is frozen - only if you let the 14 days after their response expire with no correspondence with them and no payment does the £120 become payable.

 

The councils reason for the right turn arrow and wording was that there were many accidents and people hitting street furniture so not as a warning that there is a bus lane ahead and - the fact that cannot be ignored is that most evenings you cannot turn right there!

[HYMN AND MI]

I came into Kingston with the police station on my right. Past Zizzi's on my right and over the crossing. - Does that help or make a difference?

 

Re contesting. If I contest, does the £60 reduced fee go "on hold"?

 

If I were not successful - do I end up paying the £60 fee or £120 fee? Thanks for any clarification.

 

When you talk about the Turn Right legend - i assume that's the wording in the road? So basically that is supposed to tell us we are entering a bus lane and to turn right??? If so, that's mad and unacceptable.

 

If you informally challenge, it will be placed on hold: they normally reject, as all councils do, but they must answer all points in your arguments. You came from the river, I note. The turn right legend is a mandatory instruction for all traffic, hence my calling it nonsensical.

 

Let me have a look at the signs - just come back from holiday - and I will draft something for you to send off to the nice people in the Parking Shop; in the meantime, sit tight and have faith! Lately, they have been taking months even to reply to an informal challenge so, Christmas might still happen!

[Jenny.Wren]

If you informally challenge, it will be placed on hold: they normally reject, as all councils do, but they must answer all points in your arguments. You came from the river, I note. The turn right legend is a mandatory instruction for all traffic, hence my calling it nonsensical.

 

Let me have a look at the signs - just come back from holiday - and I will draft something for you to send off to the nice people in the Parking Shop; in the meantime, sit tight and have faith! Lately, they have been taking months even to reply to an informal challenge so, Christmas might still happen!

 

ok, I appreciate you taking the time to help draft something for me. So worse case, my challenge is rejected, I still just pay £60?

 

Yes, correct, I came in from Thames Ditton, Apple Market on my left, Zizzi's on my right. Past William Hill on my right too. The annoying thing was I was picking up my brother and just needed to turn around. Would never of done it if I'd of known. Just wasn't clear enough to me!

 

You say they normally reject so are your actions on this forum and contesting letters to highlight the of lack of signage?

[frontseatdriver]

Lack of signage and incorrect signage are main points raised!

 

I think they usually reject in an attempt to get people to pay as the wording of the letters of rejection are quite forceful in reminding you that you the fine may go up to £120.

[HYMN AND MI]

My actions are to help other motorists to get off their tickets, as I did at the same location in June. If they reject your informal representation, they will extend the discount for another 14 days, after which it will increase; however, you can still make further representation and go to PATAS. As already stated, they seem to be taking ages to respond at present.