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    • Pardon late reply, had a busy last few days. I will make enquiries to the Council or Valuations Agency tomorrow when they are open. I am a little apprehensive about getting the dentist involved although I wasn't warned about the new parking system at the time. I have photos but  will need to reduce the mb size of them as 4.5 mb is maximum upload on here. They will also need editing to blot out reg numbers etc. I was given 28 days from CE to cough up after the POPLA decision and that will expire in a few days time. I intend to take this all the way and to save further action [e.g. debt collectors with the £100 rocketing to the thick end of a Grand]   write to CE and tell them take me straight to Court as all letters will be ignored. 
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Humiliation bordering on sexual harrasment by revenue Inspector

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I was wondering if anybody could advise me here. Here goes...

I work 4 days a week and since the introduction of PAYG on Southeastern trains regularly travel from Elmstead Woods to Cannon Street using my oyster.

Last week on one day I arrived at Cannon Street and realised I had forgotten my oyster cue one a very horrible experience.

I went up to one of the ticket inspectors and explained the situation. He asked me where I had come from and I explained my route, and the fact it was a regular jounrey and I had simply forgotten to touch in. He said that unfortunately I had to pay the £20 fine.

I was not entirely happy as I felt that he could easily see it was a regular journey and Cannon Street has barriers so there would be no incentive for me to avoid touching in at the beginning of my journey. However, I felt if those are the rules then I should pay the £20.

He then asked to see my oyster and opened out hte whole wallet in which my oyester was located looking at all my other personal information.

He then asked for my name, address and then DOB. I was still fine at this point.

He then said

"Who do you live with?" To which I replied "Why?"

"I need to check" he said

I became rather upset at that point and said "I live with my husband"

"What's his name?" he demanded.

"Do I have to tell you that?"

"Yes" he said with a smirk because there are "loads of blokes names at this address"

Humiliated I then told him my spouse's name and by now visibly seeming to enjoy the situation he then phoned somewhere and checked the details before issuing me with the ticket and taking payment from my card.

My gripe about this is that

a) He could soon see that I had a regular journey history from the station in question. It is not beyond the realms of imagination that I might have forgotten to touch in.

b) Having made a genuine mistake why hide behind his uniform and make a sexist remark and take pleasure in humiliating me?

I appreciate they do a difficult job but why take it out on innocent people?

 

That's the rant over. I guess my main question is whether I can do anything about this situation.

 

Thanks for any advice!

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I was wondering if anybody could advise me here. Here goes...

I work 4 days a week and since the introduction of PAYG on Southeastern trains regularly travel from Elmstead Woods to Cannon Street using my oyster.

Last week on one day I arrived at Cannon Street and realised I had forgotten my oyster cue one a very horrible experience.

I went up to one of the ticket inspectors and explained the situation. He asked me where I had come from and I explained my route, and the fact it was a regular jounrey and I had simply forgotten to touch in. He said that unfortunately I had to pay the £20 fine.

I was not entirely happy as I felt that he could easily see it was a regular journey and Cannon Street has barriers so there would be no incentive for me to avoid touching in at the beginning of my journey. However, I felt if those are the rules then I should pay the £20.

He then asked to see my oyster and opened out hte whole wallet in which my oyester was located looking at all my other personal information.

He then asked for my name, address and then DOB. I was still fine at this point.

He then said

"Who do you live with?" To which I replied "Why?"

"I need to check" he said

I became rather upset at that point and said "I live with my husband"

"What's his name?" he demanded.

"Do I have to tell you that?"

"Yes" he said with a smirk because there are "loads of blokes names at this address"

Humiliated I then told him my spouse's name and by now visibly seeming to enjoy the situation he then phoned somewhere and checked the details before issuing me with the ticket and taking payment from my card.

My gripe about this is that

a) He could soon see that I had a regular journey history from the station in question. It is not beyond the realms of imagination that I might have forgotten to touch in.

b) Having made a genuine mistake why hide behind his uniform and make a sexist remark and take pleasure in humiliating me?

I appreciate they do a difficult job but why take it out on innocent people?

 

That's the rant over. I guess my main question is whether I can do anything about this situation.

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

I'm sure one of the resident experts will be along soon, but no doubt they are out enjoying the sunshine :).

 

I'm sure they will also confirm that you need to tell them your name & address if you actually pay the £20 penalty on the spot.

 

I would of thought your best bet would be to write a letter of complaint to the train company pointing out (with proof) the facts of your regular journey and (more importantly) his unprofessional attitude.

 

Interestingly I'm sure we have all made mistakes concerning Oyster, I certainly have and I find TfL staff are in general a lot more forgiving and reasonable than TOC staff, most times when I've made an Oyster mistake they just say open the gate and don't bother about it, perhaps because the fare is likely to be a lot less.

 

Andy

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Thanks, Yes, I guess to an extent I was unlucky/careless. The issue is not really the £20 anymore. It's more his blatant intimidation and abuse of power.

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...The issue is not really the £20 anymore....

You're darn tootin'

It's the abysmal English errors in this post!!

....I would of thought your best bet .....

It should be "I would have thought ........."

 

Why can't people write English anymore?

Devolution of the species or just plain laziness?

Edited by MARTIN3030
offensive post

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Cant see anything wrong personally.

You obviously were not registered at the address and he wanted to ensure you gave correct details.

To perceive sexual harrassment from being asked those questions it make me wonder how you ever leave the house.

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whether someone 'takes offence' or not is entirely their own perception, IMHO.

i.e. if she said she took offence to what was asked and the manner she has reported it was asked in then she should complain.

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Cant see anything wrong personally.

You obviously were not registered at the address and he wanted to ensure you gave correct details.

To perceive sexual harrassment from being asked those questions it make me wonder how you ever leave the house.

 

 

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I am registered at my home address and my details showed up immediately with the place the revenue inspector phoned to but he wanted further details specifically concerning the person I lived with as other names (previous residents ) were also showing up on the database.

I also do not think he has the authority/right to look through my purse.

My main issue is the fact that because someone forgets to touch in (just once) immediately I am treated like a criminal and given the third degree.

I had credit on my oyster and it was clear that this was my regular route. It was quite feasible that I had forgotten to touch in at my station of origin but he kept focusing on why I didn't buy a monthly travelcard and instead chose to do pay as you go.

All I'm saying is that you would have thought for a first misdameanour, commonsense and discretion would prevail.

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soforene

 

this is an insult to many that do have blue badges, REMOVE IT

 

Unless of course you have a "Blue Badge" excuse.............

 

I suggest you follow this

 

we do not insult or pick holes in posters spelling , :mad:

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All I'm saying is that you would have thought for a first misdameanour, commonsense and discretion would prevail.

 

There are quite a few posts on CAG where it would appear the above doesn't happen, maybe because ticket inspectors hear so many excuses that they show no sympathy when a genuine case it put before them.

 

Andy

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Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

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There are quite a few posts on CAG where it would appear the above doesn't happen, maybe because ticket inspectors hear so many excuses that they show no sympathy when a genuine case it put before them.

 

Andy

 

True on the excuses but there would be no financial incentive for me to not touch in as Cannon Street is a terminus and has barriers and revenue inspectors on most days. There would have been no way for me to avoid the fare. Also he had a record of my journey for the past month so he knew I did this route daily Mon-Fri and always touched in and out.

 

The other issue was the fact that when I asked how to pay, he said

"You pay me and you pay now!"

 

As I am not familiar with the penalty fare system I paid immediately when looking at the notice it seems you actually have 21 days to pay.

Edited by boggler
additional information

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It does seem that if your post is entirely accurate, the inspector might appear to have been a bit over-zealous in some areas of handling this matter.

 

To go through the process step by step, the fact that you failed to touch-in using your Oyster does make the decision to levy a Penalty Fare right & proper in accordance with the rules.

 

The regular journey history does not negate the right to impose a penalty, but this is a matter for the individual member of staff and this could be reviewed by writing to the company within 21 days using the proper appeals process.

 

The data record of use of the Oyster for the immediate 8 weeks leading up to the incident can then be checked by the TOC or TfL to determine whether they will allow the appeal or not and they may investigate and

take into account any complaint regarding the actions of the staff involved.

 

Yes, you are required to give your name and address if asked, even if you are paying the Penalty on the spot.

 

The Inspector has authority to take out and examine any ticket or authority to travel if handed a ticket wallet.

 

If you do not hand over the ticket or pass the member of rail staff has the right to demand it and you are legally obliged to hand it over for examination and verification, but this does not extend to going through the contents of your 'purse' without your consent.

 

If, as so often is the case, you keep things like a driving license or other ID in the same plastic holder as an Oyster or season ticket and you hand that holder to an Inspector for verification of the ticket, then the name and address detail shown is likely to be queried ie: 'Is this you?'

 

When checking a name & address with IRCAS or RPSS (or other agency) the record that is accessed by staff using the telephone will often show a history of previous occupants. If the actual traveller's details cannot be immediately verified, you may be asked 'Who else lives at your address?'

 

An answer identifying the most recent registered occupant may then be accepted as satisfactory confirmation.

 

It is wrong to suggest that this amounts to 'sexual harrasment'.

 

I understand that you may have been annoyed or upset by your personal perception of the Inspector's attitude and this can be the basis of a complaint regarding a lack of professionalism.

 

Everyone views other people's actions and comments by their own individual standards.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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quite often when checking details I will ask whether anyone else lives at the address, to get 2 registered occupants will often satisfy my suspicions and save any other digging about, thus meaning the customer can be on their way quicker


Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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quite often when checking details I will ask whether anyone else lives at the address, to get 2 registered occupants will often satisfy my suspicions and save any other digging about, thus meaning the customer can be on their way quicker

 

While I agree that obtaining this info is useful, you cannot demand it. Old Codja is correct in saying that the inspector's authority ends by being able to demand to inspect a ticket, travel warrant, ID card or any other ticket which is the property of the relevant operator. Only a BT/ police officer can conduct a more thourgh search without the individuals consent.

 

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Thanks for the frank advice and assessment of the situation. One thing I also forgot to mention was that the revenue collector refused to give me his name and looking now on the receipt he gave me, his name is not on there.

 

Any case for complaint there?

 

From what I have read about IPFAS, people very rarely get their money back. It is called the Independent Appeal Service but is it seems a subsidiary of Southeastern Trains. What a [problem]!!!

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Thanks for the frank advice and assessment of the situation. One thing I also forgot to mention was that the revenue collector refused to give me his name and looking now on the receipt he gave me, his name is not on there.

 

Any case for complaint there?

 

From what I have read about IPFAS, people very rarely get their money back. It is called the Independent Appeal Service but is it seems a subsidiary of Southeastern Trains. What a [problem]!!!

There should still be a number on the notice relating to the official that issued it, in the form of a collar number or other reference number. Even if there isn't, the notice would be numbered, and this notice number and the penalty fare pad would be issued to said employee.

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Thanks for the frank advice and assessment of the situation. One thing I also forgot to mention was that the revenue collector refused to give me his name and looking now on the receipt he gave me, his name is not on there.

 

Any case for complaint there?

 

From what I have read about IPFAS, people very rarely get their money back. It is called the Independent Appeal Service but is it seems a subsidiary of Southeastern Trains. What a [problem]!!!

 

As Stigy says, the Penalty Fare notice will have an Authorised Person Number written on it and a printed serial number. There will be a record with the TOC of the Inspector to whom the pad was issued

 

Even if the AP number wasn't filled in, the issuer is easily identified.

 

If you have a genuine & justified complaint you stand a good chance of getting the PF notice cancelled.

 

I am not saying this is the case in your situation, but quite often the traveller's expectation is always to be given credit for simply complaining.

 

If the rules have been broken by the traveller, then invariably the appeal will be rejected.

 

It may be that a complaint against the inspector might result in disciplinary action, but that doesn't automatically negate the breach of ticketing rules.

Edited by Old-CodJA

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While I agree that obtaining this info is useful, you cannot demand it. Old Codja is correct in saying that the inspector's authority ends by being able to demand to inspect a ticket, travel warrant, ID card or any other ticket which is the property of the relevant operator. Only a BT/ police officer can conduct a more thourgh search without the individuals consent.

 

I accpet that, and no the inspector cannot demand it, I usually ask the customer and if they ask "why" I will just tell them and that it will speed things up.


Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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An update to this. I received a letter from the IPFAS saying why they had penalty fares, where they had penalty fares posters etc, etc. Then surprisingly....

 

The revenue collector must follow rule 8.2. However it is felt that he did not adhere to rule 8.2 on this occassion and therefore I am due a refund for the penalty!!!

 

I was over the moon and feel totally vindicated!

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8.2 The authorised collector may require that person to make a

minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which

they would have had to pay for their journey if penalty fares

had not applied. The person must be given 21 days to pay the

rest of the penalty fare, starting on the day that penalty fare is

charged. If the penalty fare is not paid in full immediately, it

must be paid in any way that is set out in the notice referred to

in rule 8.3.

 

In what way did he not adhere to 8.2?

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Reading the original post again I can think of one good reason that IPFAS might have come to this conclusion, but to be certain, we would need to see the actual wording of the complainants letter of appeal.

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Thank you for your correspondence, received by this office on 01-Jun-2010

The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state that where the facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising rail users of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failing to do so.

A penalty fare is an enhanced fare issued in accordance with those Rules and Regulations - it is not an implication of any intent to avoid payment of the fare due.

Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice. A copy of the Penalty Fare Rules, NRCOC and approved Code of Practice leaflet are available online at https://www.penaltyfares.co. uk.

It is a requirement of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 that the penalty fare notice should be completed in accordance with all parts of Rule 8.3. Whilst strict liability to pay a penalty fare would have been decided by the authorised collector at the time of issue, it has been concluded on this occasion that the notice is not wholly compliant with Rule 8.3.

 

With that in mind, I am pleased to inform you that your appeal has been successful. There is, however, a fare due of £3.70 for the journey in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and attached is a statement provided by the Debt Collection Agency (RPSS). A refund of £16.30 has been calculated by the Debt Recovery Agents (RPSS) and a cheque will be sent under separate cover from the train company that issued the penalty fare. If there are any queries regarding the statement please contact RPSS direct on 0871 559 2997, Monday-Friday, between 6am and 10pm, rather than IPFAS.

 

Jason Saunders Appeals Assessor

RPSS Statement Of Account for reference

Fare Due: £3.70

Administration Fee: £0.00

Notice Amount Paid: £3.70

Admin Amount Paid: £0.00

Already Refunded: £0.00

.

Amount Outstanding: £0.00

London & South Eastern Railway Limited trading as IPFAS

Registered Office: 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 6EE Registered in England No. 04860660

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Sorry, my mistake. Rule 8.3 not 8.2 Anyway, that's the letter I received.

Having appealed successfully against parking fines and traffic violations where the usual line is "We were right but are letting you off", this letter seems unusual in so much as they seem to actually be suggesting that a mistake was made by the ticket inspector......

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Sorry, my mistake. Rule 8.3 not 8.2 Anyway, that's the letter I received.

Having appealed successfully against parking fines and traffic violations where the usual line is "We were right but are letting you off", this letter seems unusual in so much as they seem to actually be suggesting that a mistake was made by the ticket inspector......

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be somewhat the "serial appealer"...

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I have just read through the penalty fare regs and suggest that anyone charged a penalty fare will be successful if they appeal and state that 8.3f was not adhered to by the inspector, it would appear to be a guaranteed get out.

 

f. that they can ask for a copy of these rules and a summary of the operator’s approved penalty fares scheme by writing or sending an e-mail to a given address or calling a given phone number.

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