Business account over 19,000 in bank charges.** SETTLED IN FULL ***

[dolfos]

pretty shocked as just done contractual interest rate of 16% (being generous I know, to takeinto account previous years interest rate and also I don't want claim to go over 50K due to court costs) and I got (45,780.30UKP).

First question does this appear corect

secondly why is it in brackets on the spreadsheet have I done something wrong???

It also states the dail interest is (2.0068) also in brackets.

Does this seem correct?

[doryphor]

jesus mary and joseph that's a lot of money!

 

Just out of curiosity, working on the assumption that you will win (and you WILL) how does this affect your existing debts? I really hope this cat least goes along way to clearing it. Poetic justice taken to a five figure sum!

[dolfos]

ik realised mistake causing brackets. I had to play with spreadsheet and insert extra formulas as their wasn't enough lines for amount of charges!!!

I have now worked out that with contractual rate of 20% the amount I claim would be 37,790.32UKP. No brackets are on the spreadsheet and that seems more likely to be the correct figure

[dolfos]

jesus mary and joseph that's a lot of money!

 

Just out of curiosity, working on the assumption that you will win (and you WILL) how does this affect your existing debts? I really hope this cat least goes along way to clearing it. Poetic justice taken to a five figure sum!

 

Got spreadsheet bit wrong so figure is meant to be 37,790.32UKP I must admit I was pretty franctic and could not believe the first results. Goes to show best to check and recheck what you have done as mistakes could cause heck of a diffrence.

This new amount though assuming we got it all back would be split we are hoping 50:50 between us and the creditors in the IVA(including HSBC). with the 50% we give to the IVA we are trying to negotiate an early settlement of the IVA which the IP thinks will be likely to be accepted if we are successful. The figure we gave him was based on the amount solely without interest as the interest is an after thought and may not even be possible but we can try.

I am now going to redo intital draft of letter to bank and will post on here for feedback.

[dolfos]

Ok here is the new draft for preliminary letter including contractual rate of 20% and taken from the 23rd October 2006 as this is when I shall post initial letter:

 

23rd October 2006

The Manager, Service Quality Team, HSBC Bank plc, Arlington Business Centre, Millshaw Park Lane, Leeds, LS11 0PP

Dear Sir/Madam,

Account name: *****

Sort code:******

Account number: **********

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my business account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to Statute.

If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

I am frankly shocked that you have operated the account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

I calculate that you have taken £25,257.05 in levies and further, I also claim interest at a rate of 20% AER as set out in the attached list of charges. I believe this rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity and it is based on your unauthorised business borrowing rate taken from your prices for your business debit rate (although the rate I found was higher than I have quoted I have reduced it to account for earlier years rates in 2002/2003, not available, which I feel is more than reasonable). Therefore, the total amount owed as of today’s date is £37,831.84.

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request for a full refund of these charges in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

What do you think??????:idea:

[sarahpp]

Excellent. I think that most people are claiming the current Unauthorised rate but I see your reasoning and agree that should it get to court it works very much in your favour to have appeared to be as reasonable as possible and this comes over very well in your letter. I am surprised actually that the figure isn't higher- did you use vamps google spreadsheets compounded throughout?

[dolfos]

Excellent. I think that most people are claiming the current Unauthorised rate but I see your reasoning and agree that should it get to court it works very much in your favour to have appeared to be as reasonable as possible and this comes over very well in your letter. I am surprised actually that the figure isn't higher- did you use vamps google spreadsheets compounded throughout?

 

No I used the contractual rate one was this wrong?

[sarahpp]

No I used the contractual rate one was this wrong?

 

I used number 2 spreadsheet from Vamp's chambers which was contractual interest compounded throughout. You are quite entitled to compound-it is what the banks do. It shows as "Vamps recommended " if you don't know the balance on the account. If you do know the balance there is a more complicated recommendation further down but, it was byond me I am afraid.

 

I think you might find yourself closer to the 50k mark if you use the compounded contractual spreadsheet.

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

[dolfos]

I used number 2 spreadsheet from Vamp's chambers which was contractual interest compounded throughout. You are quite entitled to compound-it is what the banks do. It shows as "Vamps recommended " if you don't know the balance on the account. If you do know the balance there is a more complicated recommendation further down but, it was byond me I am afraid.

 

I think you might find yourself closer to the 50k mark if you use the compounded contractual spreadsheet.

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

 

when you say balance of the account what do you mean do you mean at time account was closed or at time of the breach?

Sorry I am a little confused. I do appreciate all your help with this

[sarahpp]

when you say balance of the account what do you mean do you mean at time account was closed or at time of the breach?

Sorry I am a little confused. I do appreciate all your help with this

 

Neither I think. My impression was that you entered it as a running balance but, because some of my overdraft was at the authorised rate and some wasn't I gave up and used the number 2 spreadsheet which is more suitable for simpletons like me. On charges from around 6 years ago it compounded £3k of charges up to around the 9.5k mark so, it is well worth using.

 

If you don't want to use the one I used and fancy having a go at the one with the ongoing balance it may be worth posting on the "why is no-one claiming the contractual rate of interest" thread started by Bankfodder and asking Vamp or one of the other experts to have a look at your thread to see which is the most suitable for you.

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

[dolfos]

Thanks for this have emailed vampiress to see if I can get some direction just to be sure. Your right about the diffrence in amounts, I have just redone figures with compounded interest and the claim has come up at 41,402.63UKP (quite a diffrence). I just want confirmationwhich one I should use as I don't want to get anything wrong. Thanks for help xx

[sarahpp]

My pleasure - just looking forward to seeing your thread with ****won*** after the title.

[dolfos]

My pleasure - just looking forward to seeing your thread with ****won*** after the title.

 

Me too!!! just may take a few ups and downs along the road but hey it's worth it :D

[kateandpete]

Wow - I'm going to watch this one!!!

I think you should tot up your consequential losses and hit them with those aswell ASAP. See if you can push it over 100k!

[dolfos]

If this does hit multi track which it probably will, if I can't find a solicitor to take this on a no win no fee basis would I be able to handle this case alone? With our current financial situation legal costs would almost certainly be above our budget. The bank knowing our situation with regars to IVA are gonna know this which is why i believe court will be neccessary. At what point do I need proper legal representation at the moment I feel comfrtable dealing with this with the help and support from you guys. Will that be enough?

[dolfos]

Ok

Today is the day things could be strting to improve or I am commencing the biggest joke for the banks ever.

I don't know why but I am so reluctant and am feeling the nerves and previous confidence drain from me.

I am posting my prelim letter includigcompounded interest at 20%. This makes my claim to the bank a scary 41,402.63 to date.

I am sending letter recorded delivery to the service quality team, Arlington business park LS11 0PP.

What do you reckon will they laugh at my request or will they take me seriously. I have searched on the threads and can not find any other claim amount that appears close to this which again is very daunting as have no way of judging their reaction.

Anyway wish me luck. With regards to a solicitor I have written to a few inthe hope I may get some help from them however today i also found a site called Law works who help find solicitors who take on pro bono cases. their is an application process which I would have to do through the CAB. Hasanyone else heard of them or used them. Should I apply now or if and when this is on it's way to court?

[andrew1]

I know this might be a bit late in the day to ask, but you are not a member of the Federation of Small Business (FSB) by any chance are you? - for £75 a year you could have had all the legal advice 24/7 you wanted. Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) - Britain's Largest Business Support Organisation worth its' weight in gold for times like this.

[sarahpp]

Stay strong Dolfos.

 

I think we probably all felt a bit nervous the first time we dropped our preliminary letters off for posting. I know I did - I just kept repeating in my head

 

Have I done my research properly -yes

Have I followed the correct procedure -Yes

Are the charges unlawful -Yes

Are the banks going to want to stand up in court and disclose how they arrive at their charges - NO!

Is this money mine - Yes

 

I know your claim is on a much larger scale but, the principles remain the same.

 

I can assure you of one thing - the bank will not be laughing when they get your letter!!

 

Good Luck

 

Sarah

[kateandpete]

The fact that you will be in a higher court than small claims will work in your favour.

On hearing that mine had been allocated to fast track, Natwest folded pretty quickly.

WON £3708.81 !!!!

[pinkychops]

Good Luck Dolfos,

Keeping everything crossed for you.

[HSBCrusher]

Regarding contractual interest, and bearing in mind this is a VAST claim of epic proportions, I would like you to take a look at this thread.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mercantile-court-cases-stays/36034-case-management-conference-13th.html

especially this post

not to put you off, just so you know what arguments might come up....

[dolfos]

Regarding contractual interest, and bearing in mind this is a VAST claim of epic proportions, I would like you to take a look at this thread.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mercantile-court-cases-stays/36034-case-management-conference-13th.html

especially this post

not to put you off, just so you know what arguments might come up....

 

After reading this I am worried and now wish I had just gone for the charges . If it goes to a court claim can I just put in for the 25K plus the statuaratory 8% under s69 or is this too late and will it effectthe claim?

[HSBCrusher]

That wasn't designed to scare you off, steady as you are, you can always change your mind later if you wish before court action.

I dont think the issue was the higher rate interest, but at what rate should be, the average was not accurate enough for the judge.

[dolfos]

That wasn't designed to scare you off, steady as you are, you can always change your mind later if you wish before court action.

I dont think the issue was the higher rate interest, but at what rate should be, the average was not accurate enough for the judge.

 

Sorry I know I panicked I have had theworst day today and it just feels like since posting off the prelim everything is going wrong today.

 

I do want to pick your brains now on another potential issue with regards to any monies reclaimed which even our IP is not able to give us a straight answer to and I could really do with some help:

 

If we manage to reclaim charges back our IP is not clear as to weather even though HSBC have agreed to the IVA and it's terms etc weather they can simple just off set any refunds against their claim in the IVA for the business loan. My argument is that surely if it is legally binding for all creditors they all share the same obligation to ensure that any monies are equally distributed in the pot. I can see how legally HSBC can do this as surely they are then breaking their agreement with all the creditors. I can't believe it seems to be an if maybe situation. Can you point me in any helpful directions to try anddo our IP's work for him. according to him although strictly speaking they can not do this if they did there would not be alot you could do about it. ( I thought the Supervisor had a responsibility to the creditors to ensure terms were adhered to and that it was fair to all the creditors.) i am really angry that this has come to light. I even sought advice from a solicitor who deals with insolvencey and even he could not give me a deffinate response. Unless I have misunderstood completely, which is extremely possible today:(direct quote)

 

I believe the "big four" high street banks are being (or about to be) investigated by the Competition Commission in respect of charging structures but I cannot say immediately how this will impact on your husband if the banks are found at fault. It is possible that the banks could be fined but whether or not this comes back to customers I cannot say at present. The modification to the IVA is what I would have expected to see and I hope the creditors accept it. ( This is great news!)

One thing I should say is that if charges are refunded this might have to go to reducing the bank's debt that was admitted to the IVA which would have the effect of increasing the outcome to creditors. I only raise this subject to further information about how the bank's debt in the IVA was made up.

To me this sounds like he also is saying the bank may off set any charges against their debt in the IVA and not put it in the pot.

thankyou for hanging in with me guys x

[alexifa]

If they offer to settle then the settlement will be on your terms. If it goes to court and you win, you can ask the judgement to order the proceeds to be paid as a cheque.