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Finders Keepers


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Now here is one you can debate. Bailiffs (Bless 'em) often quote the indeterminate ownership of a vehicle as an excuse for towing it.

 

However the local authority which instructs them do so after contacting the DVLA for details of the registered keeper. The DVLA cannot send any other details such as ownership as it doesn't have them.

 

The local authority then sends out a Notice To Owner and any subsequent enforcement is then based on that notice.

 

Over to you for comments as to you whether you see an irony and lack of clear thinking by the legislators when local authorities are invited to treat keepers and owners as being the same and bailiffs (bless 'em) then further blur the line between ownership and registered keeper to their advantage when there is a dispute about ownership.

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the DVLA does not keep owner information. hence all the legislation which refers to "the person appearing to be the owner". They could if they wanted but people would then question who has title to their vehicle. See the V62 form and ponder a while. Bailiff cheat all the time, nothing new.

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The legislators were perfectly clear in their thinking. That is why they included in the law a statutory presumption that the registered keeper is the owner. If the registered keeper is not the owner they have, unless the system fails, plenty of opportunity to say so.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Older laws which have not been repealed accept that owners and keepers are very often different people. You can't just bring out a law on the basis that it is convenient to ignore existing laws that lie in the way of a new objective. If the old laws are to be superseded then they must be repealed.

 

Definitely a case of muddled thinking by legislators if they simply introduce a new law that just contradicts existing ones.

 

And no - once a bailiff clamps a car then owners and new owners have no opportunity to say so and very often this will be the first they know a problem exists.

 

How exactly would I appeal against a PCN obtained by another before they sold a car to me? Or by another person using my company car that is registered in my name? In both cases I have assumed that the drivers did not advise me.

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"1) How exactly would I appeal against a pcnobtained by another before they sold a car to me? Or 2) by another person using my company car that is registered in my name? In both cases I have assumed that the drivers did not advise me." 1) Statutory grounds allow this. Have a look at any PCN or NTO posted up on here.2) RK (well the person appearing to be the owner) is liable no matter who was driving. Of course lease and hire agreements normally transfer that liability away from the lease company (the putative owner) and the parking regs acknowledge this.

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Older laws which have not been repealed accept that owners and keepers are very often different people. You can't just bring out a law on the basis that it is convenient to ignore existing laws that lie in the way of a new objective. If the old laws are to be superseded then they must be repealed.

 

What older laws relating to decriminalised parking enforcement or other motoring matters are you thinking of?

 

Definitely a case of muddled thinking by legislators if they simply introduce a new law that just contradicts existing ones.

 

Personally I think it was clear thinking. They knew full well that the ownership issue was a difficult one so they created a mechanism that asserts ownership on the keeper for the purposes of enforcement unless the contrary is proven.

 

And no - once a bailiff clamps a car then owners and new owners have no opportunity to say so and very often this will be the first they know a problem exists.

 

How exactly would I appeal against a PCN obtained by another before they sold a car to me? Or by another person using my company car that is registered in my name? In both cases I have assumed that the drivers did not advise me.

 

In these circumstances either the system has failed or someone has not properly responded to the documentation. In the circumstances you describe, in the first case you appeal that you were not the owner at the relevant time, in the second that you are not the owner (but you may still find yourself liable to the owner of the car under a separate agreement).

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Forget statutory grounds. The bailiff who has clamped your car is not interested in anything except depriving you of an excessive amount of money.

 

How do you appeal to him?

 

How do you appeal when his ANPR fitted van detected your parked car and took it whilst you were unaware?

 

These people don't take cars from people appearing to be the owner, because they do know who it belongs to. Nor do they care

 

Believe me, it happens everyday in London.

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Older laws? The ones that show a difference between ownership and registered keeper. You must of heard of them. They were valid when I bought my first car 43 years ago.

 

If there was clear thinking there would be no contradictions.

 

The system isn't designed to protect the individual, it is designed to allow local authorities to collect revenue.

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If a bailiff is clamping or towing a car without lawful authority then it is, potentially, a criminal offence.

 

When most of these cases are unravelled there has (rarely in my experience) either been a failure of the system in which event there is an appeal process. Much more often the motorist has either not kept their records updated as they should or failed to respond properly to the paperwork or somehow thought they could outwit the system.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Yes Bernie - I know that it is illegal, which is why I fight it. I come across abuse every day whether that abuse is via a bailiff, local authority officials who have no idea how they should administer and enforce parking, parking service employees who are just plain rude and ignorant and others who are convinced that no knowledge of decriminalised parking allows them to act any way they feel fit and that treating motorists with contempt is part of their job description

 

You have provided a very naive answer from somebody who truly believes that the system is fair. You need to understand what is really happening out there. The rule books are not just torn up, they don't exist.

 

When did you last speak to a bailiff whilst he was in the act of clamping and towing a car that he has no warrant for?

 

Take it from me that they don't care for the pleasantry of who the owner or the regsitered keeper is.

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Yes Bernie - I know that it is illegal, which is why I fight it. I come across abuse every day whether that abuse is via a bailiff, local authority officials who have no idea how they should administer and enforce parking, parking service employees who are just plain rude and ignorant and others who are convinced that no knowledge of decriminalised parking allows them to act any way they feel fit and that treating motorists with contempt is part of their job description

 

So what do the police say when you report it?

 

You have provided a very naive answer from somebody who truly believes that the system is fair. You need to understand what is really happening out there. The rule books are not just torn up, they don't exist.

 

I resent the "naive" suggestion. The rule books do exist. You are describing a situation where the rules are ignored and/or not known. I have never said the system is fair, I do not think it is in its entirety but it is what it is.

 

When did you last speak to a bailiff whilst he was in the act of clamping and towing a car that he has no warrant for?

 

Take it from me that they don't care for the pleasantry of who the owner or the regsitered keeper is.

 

I admit I have never done this but if my car was being clamped or removed in a manner that I felt was unlawful I would call the police. Is that not what you do? What do they say?

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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I admit I have never done this but if my car was being clamped or removed in a manner that I felt was unlawful I would call the police.

 

And 99% of the time you will be told "civil matter".

 

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And 99% of the time you will be told "civil matter".

 

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To which I would reply "No, it's a taking without consent or lawful authority".

I accept that getting a response at that time may be a challenge but I would persist and get a record of the 999 report from which I could act.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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999 is a life or death emergency number. Bailiffs don't take the car there and then, they clamp and hope that will make you pay, so it wouldn't be an emergency.

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What do the police say when you report it?

 

1) Its a civil matter (as Conniff has said).

2) Yes, a bailiff phoned and said that he has taken your car.

 

 

Is that not what you do? What do they say?

 

3) Step aside Sir otherwise I will arrest for a breach of the peace.

4) If you attempt to drive off in that I will arrest you for theft

5) The bailiff has a warrant (except that he hasn't)

6) He has a warrant because he has showed it to me (this from a man who wouldn't know a warrant from the Beano)

7) If you attempt to stop him taking the car I will arrest you for breach of the peace

8) Yes he can force entry into your house and if you prevent him I will arrest you for breach of the peace

 

Thats the reality of the system.

 

Who put the bl..dy cool emblem in?

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999 is a life or death emergency number. Bailiffs don't take the car there and then, they clamp and hope that will make you pay, so it wouldn't be an emergency.

 

If you reasonably believe that you are witnessing a crime taking place it is perfectly appropriate to call 999.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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And if the police on your doorstep did listen to you, you could quote section 6 of the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations 1993 (version 2073) wherein section 86 and paragraph 4 of section 85 of the County Court Acts 1984 no longer apply.

 

What the means in plain English is that the police shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

Unfortunately they will not listen to you, so you are back to 'I will arrest you etc, etc....'

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How do you appeal when his ANPR fitted van detected your parked car and took it whilst you were unaware?

It would be an interesting thing to challenge this if a bailiff clamped or seized your car when it was not at the property specified on the warrant.

 

From what I understand from posts by Tomtubby this is certainly cause to make an official complaint against the bailiff via the courts.

 

IMV once they act ultra vires then it becomes TWOC. Whether the plod and CPS would be interested in a complaint of TWOC is another matter. IMV it also puts the combined operations conducted by the police and bailiffs for PCNs in a very dubious light.

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This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

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Public Order Act

 

That is exactly what they will say.

 

Truth is there is no offence of "breach of the peace" under that act. Instead there is an offence of causing 'intentional harassment, alarm or distress.'

 

The accused must used threatening, abusive word etc or dissorderly behaviour... stopping your car getting clamped = dissorderly behaviour? Im not sure :???:

Warning: Freemen of the Land Operate here. Think twice before accepting 'legal advice'.

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