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HP Mum v Nat West & Shoosmiths - HELP

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I have been putting off writing on here as I have had so many other pressing issues to deal with :(.


But now I need some help with a very confusing situation I have with NW & Shoosmiths.


I will try and explain concisely.


This is the background, but the real issue , without meaning to be cryptic, comes later:


I had a business overdraft, un-secured, with NW.

I had a very successful business, but then some clients had problems which ultimately affected my business too.

I ended up closing that company down 6 years ago.

I was not able to reduce or clear the debt.

It was a very large sum.


NW tried chasing me themselves and via their in-house dca, but as I had no income they got nowhere.

To keep them happy for a while, I paid a nominal £50/m to the dca.


Eventually, almost 6 years ago, NW closed the account but asked me to continue paying £50/m.

It seemed easier to pay the £50/m than fight them....


2 years ago I asked to see a statement.

Imagine my shock when I saw the balance had increased by many 000's, allegedly.

At that point I stopped paying the £50/m.


NW chased me for a bit, then passed me on to Shoosmiths solicitors.



In summer 08, Shoosmiths then sent me court papers. I wish I had found this site before then :(.


I went to court and defended myself.

I got a Judgment against me but the Judge agreed to let me pay a nominal £x/m.

He refused Shoosmiths demand for a charging order on my property,

saying that as long as I was paying the £x/m they would not be allowed.


Shoosmiths then, just 2months later, failed to cash a cheque (on purpose) meaning that I had "missed" a monthly payment.

The next thing I knew, I had an Interim Charging Order through the door,

which meant another round in the court to defend and get another judge to throw their claim out.


Since then I have made the £x/m payments through the bank to prevent Shoosmiths playing such a dirty trick again.


I just received a letter from Shoosmiths saying

"our client has advised that an increase in payment is required, in order to prevent any further legal action they may decide to take".

They have enclosed an income expenses questionnaire and ask me to reply within 14 days.


It is this letter today which has prompted me to ask for help on CAG.


Firstly, I obviously have to reply to their letter.


But secondly, there is a HUGE discrepancy in Shoosmith's claim.

Their claim was only for a tiny % of what was my true debt to NW ;).

Which is the crux of my need for help now.


To further elaborate:

When NW closed my account almost 6 yrs ago,

they transferred the huge balance in its entirety to a new account.

NW have sent me a statement which shows the balance at closing

and starting in their new account as being the same.


Now, when Shoosmiths sent papers to the court they advised the balance of my account owing to NW was only a fifth of the "NW alleged" true balance.


Without telling the judge what the true balance was,

I queried the discrepancy between the true balance owing to NW

and that which Shoosmiths was claiming was the balance.

The Judge ordered the solicitor for Shoosmiths to come back to me

and the court within 14 days time with the answer.


Shoosmiths letter states that:

"for the avoidance of doubt, the only account being pursued under claim number xxxx is for:

Sort Code: NW new sort code #

Account: NW new account #

Current Balance £x (incorrect low amount)


They state

"that confusion has arisen from me receiving statements from Nat West in relation to:

Sort Code: my old NW current account sort code #

Account: my old NW current account #

Name: old company name

They also state that they are not instructed to act in relation to this account.


But there is only one account at NW.

NW cancelled the old current account and transferred the whole balance over to the new account - without asking me. I saw no papers on this action, never signed anything.

The Claim # relates to the new account #.

Shoosmiths & NW have the balance wrong.

And the Judgment against me is for the lower balance.


I wrote to the Court and explained this.

When I went back to Court about their slimy tactics to get an Interim Charging Order

I got a different judge and he did not want to deal with this issue about the balance discrepancies.


In the meantime,

NW continue to send me interest accruing statements,

referring to my old branch current account, which they have already said they closed down....


If the amount on the Judgement is deemed to be the current total debt to NW,

then I fail to understand why NW is still sending interest accruing statements on the higher balance.


I am not sure if I have made myself clear here ??


I think NW & SHoosmiths screwed up and have effectively written off the difference

between the alleged total debt on the Judgment and the alleged true total balance (less their charges of course).


I have not argued this point in 2 years as I have been too stressed and busy with seemingly more pressing issues.

I think they consider me ignorant and weak and now they want to resume legal pressure for me to pay more monthly...


I would like to fight them, with some helpful advice and new found strength from CAG.



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Just giving you a bump with a couple of thoughts


As I understand it, you can voluntarily increase your payment but they cannot force you to without going back to court.


I'm wondering if they are doing a bryan carter here. A split claim. Going for a smaller amount first then bunging in for a larger debt later :confused:

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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The main issue is: If they have made a mistake that I can legally challenge...


Shoosmiths wrote that the only debt they were instructed in was for the balance of the total debt with NW, which was £x.

But they got the balance wrong.

Even when the Judge gave them 14 days further to clarify it.


The total debt was 5 times higher (including NW charges).


My company debt was not split into 2 accounts - there was only one account.


So if Shoosmiths have stated in court papers that the total is £x,

am I right in thinking that the rest of the balance has effectively been written off -albeit by mistake ????


And how do I challenge Shoosmiths and NW on this ?


Any advice on this?


Am out all day....

Would be great to have some feedback to work on tonight !!



Can someone please offer some legal advice on this.


I just don't know what to do.


If the solicitors has said in court that my total debt to NW is £xk, and I have a CCJ against me for this amount -why are NW still sending me interest accruing statements for the whole debt ?


I did not think a bank could still charge interest on an account which had a CCJ on it.

Am I wrong ?


There is this huge discrepancy between what the CCJ is for and what my real debt was.




Are there any template papers I could send them ?

I would really like to get rid of these toe rags.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry to keep bothering people here, but I would really like someone to help me write a letter to both Shoosmiths and NW on the above...

Can someone offer some good advice?

Or should I move this to a different forum ?

Thanks in advance.

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problem is people cannot offer "legal advice" on here, its simply not allowed, they can however offer their opinions.


Im not surprised the judge wouldnt hear you at the charging order hearing,

it would not be appropriate to do so,

the correct method in my opinion would be an application if you wanted to be heard.


If the order of the court allowed for interest to be charged ,

then they will still be able to charge interest

and there is not much can be done about it sadly,

so its a case of going back over the papers from the court first.


Was the company a limited company or were you a soletrader?


The CCJ is the debt which they can recover,

if it is one fifth of the real debt then that goes in your favour

as they may be estopped from recovering the rest save for the amount on the judgment

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Hi and thanks for replying PT.


I must have confused the issue - it wasn't a Charging Order hearing (that came later and I dealt with it and got it thrown out).


NW took me to court, via Shoosmiths, to try to get me to pay off my overdraft.


It was a Limited Company overdraft, that I had personally guaranteed up to £xx,000, but it was not secured.


Shoosmiths wanted to get a Charging Order but the Judge refused to let them whilst I was paying a nominal £x/m.


I went to court twice on this issue.


The first time I queried the fact that my overdraft with NW was much higher

yet the solicitors were claiming the total debt was much lower.

I wanted clarity on what my debt was.

The Judge said he did too.


The Judge also quite specifically said that NW could not have a Judgment on part of a debt,

yet still be charging huge interest on a different amount.


The Judge gave the solicitors 2 weeks to find out exactly what the debt was and what the Judgment related to.

we went back to court 2 weeks later.

This is when Shoosmiths said that the total debt was the lower amount

and that was what they were instructed on (which made me smile ;)).

And Shoosmiths still did not have an answer as to why NW was still charging £500+/quarter interest on the debt,

at the same time as me having a Judgment on the debt stating I had to pay £x/m.

There is still interest being applied to the Judgment amount.



The 2nd Judge did not understand that Shoosmiths were supposed to clarify this issue.

He was not interested in what the Judgement related to or how much is was for,

he just wanted to reiterate that as long as I paid £x/m NW was not going to get a Charging Order.


Put simply I want clarity myself.

And I am not sure on what steps to take, without opening a can of worms...


- I have a Judgement for more than £5k,

which Shoosmiths claim is the total NW debt relating to my business overdraft.

I pay nominal £x/m and there is interest accruing on this debt.


- The overdraft with NW was for over £20k and applied interest which made it rise to over £30k, and more by now.

Despite paying £x/m to Shoosmiths relating to the Judgment and alleged total overdraft debt,

NW have continued to send me interest accruing statements of about £500-600/quarter.


I do not understand how they can do both.


Shoosmiths have stated in court papers that my total debt owing to NW relating to my biz account was bit more than £5k, not £30k+.


My overdraft debt was allegedly over £30k+ (disputed though cos of all the punitive interest & charges)

It is about this situation that I am trying to work out what to do.


Shoosmiths wrote last month wanting me to increase my monthly payments to them. Their letter made me want to sort this out.


Is there some form of template on here that I can use ?


I think that there are different rules to an overdraft to a loan or credit card - is that right ?



I know this is a confusing situation. I hope I am being articulate enough....

Any help on the right steps to take would be most grateful.



In reading through some other threads, I came across this article below.

I am interested as I can see similarities to my case with NW.

I am not sure if I need to SAR NW or Shoosmiths ? Or just write a letter to NW ?



How trustworthy is your bank? | Money | The Guardian


The second "true copy" the bank prepared was correct, says the spokesman.

[Guardian Money has seen a copy and it is almost, but not completely, identical to Walton's own copy].

"Once the CCJ was enforced, that became his credit agreement with us,

and so we were no longer legally obliged to provide a 'true copy' of the original agreement," he adds.

Walton's accounts "remain open for book-keeping purposes only.

With the CCJ in place, they no longer have any significance to the debt being recovered .

.. but are simply a vehicle for receiving his £38 monthly payment ...

regrettably, Mr Walton was sent statements on these accounts,

which should not have been done.

"The statements show interest still being applied to the accounts,

which is done for our own internal accounting and is normal practice

... but this is not owed by Mr Walton."

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I take it your accounts are being processed at CMS Telford?


I've PMd you.




An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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  • 4 weeks later...


I have just received another letter from Shoosmiths.

They say they are disappointed not to have heard from me !!


They wrote at the start of May requesting my proposals for the repayment of the debt outstanding to their client, Nat West.

I did not bother to reply cos I don't know how to reply :-(


I mean, they have a Judgment against me,

nothing has changed in my life

and I cant afford more than the Judgment amount.


SO what are they saying here ?

That they are going re-open the Claim # with the courts and try to get me to pay more ?

Can they do this ?

Or at least Can they try to do this ?


Should I simply write back and say can only afford what the Judgment said to pay ?


And should I now try and sort out the issue over what the true debt to NW is ?


I'm confused ...


Sorry PaulWlton above, I did not respond.

I am dealing with Shoosmiths at Northampton.


But I keep getting statements from my local branch too. But this account was closed and yes, I think sent to Telford for collections.

I get a £10 service every quarter.

And have just received another advice of debit interest for the last quarter of another £500.

So the local branch is adding about £2000 a year on a debt that Shoosmiths have got a judgment on and towards which I am paying nominal £x a month, plus their interest....


This is where there is confusion.

I am just beginning to wonder if I should write to the branch and tell them there must be some mistake with them still applying debit interest to an account which has been closed, against which there is a Judgment...


Any thoughts on this ?

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Send the DSAR to CMS Telford, make sure you include all the account numbers.


I've PMd you.



An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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I would have to tweek this as I didnt have a mortgage account with NW, just current accounts.

But what is Telford ? Is that NW head office ? And what is the correct address to write to??

All my files are in storage at the mo and I need to go there to dig out the file to find all the addresses from NW to me.


If I SAR Nat West, what am I now hoping to achieve ?


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send the DSAR to whoever is processing your accounts...probably CMS Telford.


You need to find out what they've been up to with your accounts. eg: do the terms and conditions allow for interest to be added post judgment?

Have they been levying monthly fees?

Have they transposed your accounts into something you never agreed to.

Were your payments misappropriated? etc?


My advice is to send one ASAP. However, it's your choice.



An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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I am not sure if I have made myself clear here ??
Yes I completely understand. Paul, myself & others have also experienced what the bank call "The Transitioning Process":confused:. Where a customers current account goes into default, the account is then transferred from your local branch to Customer Management Services in Telford. The bank then tells you that your account numbers & sort codes have changed. You presume & accept that the change is purely administrative & has not in anyway affected your indebtedness.(Because you assume that such a large organisation would be honest & open with you).

You are WRONG to presume this. They are only interested in money, rules & laws are ignored.

This is what has actually happened. When your Current Account was transferred, CMS CLOSED it. The "New" account they refer to, is just that a completely NEW account, infact it is a LOAN CAP & INT Account, which accrues interest quarterly.

How do I Know its a Loan Acc ?

NW have continued to send me interest accruing statements of about £500-600/quarter.
A current account will accrue interest & charges daily/monthly. A loan account has interest applied quarterly.



Why are you recieving conflicting figures ?


The amount on your CCJ is (Possibly)the true amount owed on your old accounts which were closed.


The reason they are sending statements showing Post Judgment Interest, is because they have to, the 2006 CCA amendments forces them to do this. Because, PJI can be added to Loan accounts, but not to current accounts. They do this for "Internal Accounting Purposes Only", :confused:the RBS has since the 1990's been using accounts such as yours to artificially inflate its balance sheet.

An overdrawn current account would appear on the branches ledger as a "Debt". By closing the account, & replacing it with a Loan account, the debt disappears, and is replaced by an "Asset", which the bank can declare as an ever increasing profit. That way, all that interest they are adding, they themselves can borrow against.....hope your following this.;)


What you need to do.

Keep paying the £20. If they want more they will have to take it back to court. Send the paperwork back to Shoooo's.


Your DSAR needs to go to


Joyce E Tudor

Retail Regulatory Risk

Business House B

PO Box 1000


EH12 1HQ


Ask for all statements/ data for your original Current Account. And again for the "New" Account. Make sure you give the full account numbers & sort code. Enclose your £10.

Also, copy CMS on your DSAR. In the letter to them ask for a copy of your "Diary event History", and all statements for your Router Account.Don't send any money.

The address is

The Recovery Manager

Credit Management Services

Ironmasters Way





But also, send a DSAR to Shooo's Data Controller. Enclose your £10. They have to comply, it will reveal what has been going on between them, what they have been discussing about your case....& possibly more.


I wish I had found you sooner.PW gave me your link. It might help if you ask a mod to move your thread.


Who am I ?

Couple stung by £100,000 ‘secret’ loan - Times Online - Similar


PM me if you need anything.


Debbie x

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Debbbbsy, does this mean that Shoosmiths / NW have a CCJ against me on an account which I never agreed to and which should not even really exist and thus can't really even have a CCJ ?


I have read your Times article.

I am trying to now get my head round my own set of circumstances in relation to yours.


So, NW closed my account and when they set up a new (loan) account, for internal purposes as you have described, they did so without my authority - which they officially needed to do.

I guess what you are saying is that they are not allowed to close one type of account (current) into another (loan) without my signature and approval.


Shoosmiths catagorically claimed they were only instructed to act on this new (loan) account, not my original current account.

So I have got a CCJ on this new (loan) account and am paying £x/monthly against it. And Shoosmiths are continuing to add interest to the total of the CCJ claim.

However, in the background, the bulk of the unauthorised (loan) account is also still increasing ?


I think I have got all that right, based on your story. Please correct me if I am seeing it wrong.


I am being sent statements from my local branch, which NW said they had closed and transferred into the new (loan) account in Telford. So I am not sure of the discrepancy here.


Anyways, I did check my old paperwork and I found pretty much everything and it is neatly filed now.

I can see I signed a personal guarantee, when NW originally gave me an overdraft for my business current account. It was unsecured.


The amount of the CCJ is for over £5k.

2 years ago the new unauthorised (loan) account balance had risen to over £30k+, so given NW quarterly interest statements, this is probably heading towards £40k now :( When NW closed the account and transferred it to CMS, it was just over £20k...


So for action now: (thank you sooooo much)


If I am reading you right:

1) I need to write a brief letter to Shoosmiths saying I am continuing to pay £x/m as that is all I can afford.


2) Draft a SAR to Joyce in Edinburgh.

Please confirm with me she is part of NW as the address doesnt make this clear.

Do I need to ask her for all details on the original current account and their new account in the same SAR ?

And send my £10 postal order.


3) Write a letter to NW in Telford.

Ask for Diary event History and all statements for my Router Account.

And copy the letter sent in 2)

Not sending £10


4) Send a regular SAR to Shoos ?

Or the same SAR as to Joyce asking for info on both accounts ? Bearing in mind that they have said they are only instructed to act on the new unauthorised account....

And send £10 po


This is an amazing insight, Debbbbsy. I have been worrying about this for ages. I have had a particularly tough week with other personal issues and this is just the perfect email to have read to put a more positive angle on the week :)

I look forward to hearing back from you.



And Paul, thank YOU so much for persisting with my story. As said, I have had a tough week (s) and have not got back to you. But thank you. I really, really appreciate it.


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Debbbbsy, does this mean that Shoosmiths / NW have a CCJ against me on an account which I never agreed to and which should not even really exist and thus can't really even have a CCJ ?


1) I need to write a brief letter to Shoosmiths saying I am continuing to pay £20/m as that is all I can afford.
NO. You inform them that the CCJ is now your agreement & you are paying as per the Terms & Conditions of this agreement. If they wish to have the order varied they will have to apply to the courts.


2) Draft a Subject access requestlink3.gif to Joyce in Edinburgh.


Natwest & RBS are the same company. Send 1 DSAR letter for both accounts ,use the template from the site. Refer to both accounts as if they are seperate. Don't mention anything about the changes. She will only supply what she has on her system, & has no knowledge of any changes. Her system will show when your original account was opened & closed, and when the new account was opened. You should recieve from her all statements for both accounts, and a covering letter stating what type of accounts these are.


3) Write a letter to NW in Telford.

Ask for Diary event History and all statements for my Router Account.

And copy the letter sent in 2)

Not sending £10



4) Send a regular Subject Access Request to Shoos ?

Or the same Subject Access Request as to Joyce asking for info on both accounts ? Bearing in mind that they have said they are only instructed to act on the new unauthorised account....

And send £10 po

In the DSAR to Shooo's, you do not need to refer to the account number. It is a slightly different request, from them you want ALL data they hold on you, ALL correspondence between them & there client, whether electronic mail or paper correspondence. Absolutely everything. They will also have an internal diary which will show all activity.Address it to the Data Controller & enclose £10.


Good luck

PM me if you are unsure of anything


Debs xx

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Debbbbsy, does this mean that Shoosmiths / NW have a CCJ against me on an account which I never agreed to and which should not even really exist and thus can't really even have a CCJ ?




Hmmmm - so does this mean eventually that I can get this thrown out ?


So will this do to Shoos ??:


I am in receipt of your letter dated xx/10 and have made note of its contents.

With reference to this correspondence, requesting “my proposals for the repayment of the debt outstanding” to your client, I am writing to remind you that the County Court Judgment is now my agreement and I will pay as per the terms and conditions of this agreement.


Is this ok to send to Joyce :


Dear Madam,


Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request



Re: Sort Code: Old current xx/ Account Number: Old current xx / Name: xx biz name

Re: Sort Code: new NW xx / Account Number: new NW xx / Name: new NW name



Please supply me with all data - not limited to my transaction history and not limited merely to 6 years of historical information - which you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with NW.

3. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

4. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date they were levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charges were calculated, and what the charges cover.

5. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

6. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

7. A list of third party agencies to which you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

8. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

9. Termination notices



PLEASE NOTE: That unless otherwise stated by yourselves, and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be confirmed that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec).


You are reminded that you are obliged to supply all the above documents in line with the Information Commissioners Technical Guidance update (Dated Aug 07)


I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

Please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

Yours faithfully


And to Telford:


The Recovery Manager

Credit Management Services




Dear Sirs,


Re: Sort Code: xx-xx-xx / Account Number: xxxxxxxx / Name: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Re: Sort Code: xx-xx-xx / Account Number: xxxxxxxx


Please find enclosed a copy of the Subject Access Request letter sent to Ms Joyce Tudor in the Retail Regulatory Risk Department in Edinburgh.


Referring to the above accounts I would like you to send me the Diary Event History and all statements for my Router Account.

Is this ok ??

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Short & perfectly sweet.:D


The last thing I want to do is give you false hope,

getting a CCJ set a side is complicated & very difficult.

Certain factors are relevant, the most important being how long ago they got judgment.

But aslong as you pay the £20 a month, they can do absolutely nothing.


If ever they try to bring this back to court for a variation order,

with the information you recieve from your DSAR,

I promise you that I will do everything I can to ensure they fail and they never get a Charging order.


The CCJ is frozen, they cannot add post judgment interest.(Even though they are:confused:). You will get this confirmed.


Your £20 a month doesn't even cover the cost of managing the account :D:D.

Everytime Shooo's contact you, contact the bank, put a note on there system.

...they charge a minimum of £150. This is allocated to your account.


The CCJ will disappear after 6 years. You are in an incredibly strong position to offer the bank a full & final settlement.


You have taken them on , and prevented them from getting the charging order, you have done brilliantly so far.


There is no quick & easy fix to this. Undoing what has already happened is at this stage not an option:(.

But using what you learn from now on will prevent any further enforcement.


Debs xx

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Judgment was 2 years ago.


Thanks for the compliment. When I went to court, perfectly prepared, I found a solicitor from Shoos who had quite clearly only got the file the day before as he did not have a clue. That said, I wish I had known about this site then. Maybe I could have argued against a Judgment in the first place. It is the only ccj I have.


I will print and special all soonest.

I guess I will then have to wait up to 40 days ....


ok - an update for anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation.


I have written the above letters Debs suggested:

1. To Shoosmith, re-advising them that the CCJ is my agreement and I will only abide by the CCJ's terms.

2. A SAR to Shoosmith with a postal order for £10, to special

3. A SAR to Joyce in Edinburgh, enclosing a po for £10, to special

4. A copy of SAR sent to Joyce, to Nat West Credit Managment Services in Telford and in the same envelope a brief letter asking for the Diary Event History and all statements for my router account, to special.


One thing though - I realise I am not sure who the postal order (for Joyce) should be made out to ? NW or RBS ? Who should it be made out to ?????


So what now ?

When they reply - what am I looking for ?

And what should my next step be ?


What a glorious sunny day :-)

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The cheque should have been addressed to Natwest.


Just sit back and wait for the docs to arrive.


BTW. It's worth noting that when defending an action brought in similar situations by RBS/Natwest, the Defendant's solicitors are now requesting full disclosure of the bank's "internal" accounting documents, at this stage the bank are capitulating and discontinuing the claim.




An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Thanks Paul, that is good to know. I doubt I will go the route of solicitors. I hope I can handle it myself, so it is good to know I should ask such a question if it comes to court.


Despite all the details Debs has given, I am still struggling to work out NW's tactics with the ccj. If they closed my current account and set up this - unauthorised - loan account which is increasing constantly with - unauthorised - interest amounts, so that the total is probably huge and will only continue to get even larger - then why would they only demand £6k on the Claim?


Shoosmiths confirmed in writing they were only authorised on this new (loan) account. So I don't understand - still - why NW didn't go for the full amount on their newly set up (unauthorised) loan account ?????


Am I being stupid here. Is it clever tactics ?

That NW split the (unauthorised) total on purpose ??

That they put forward a claim on a smaller amount, leaving the much larger amount in the background gaining huge interest, as Debs said, for their balance sheet and borrowing purposes ?

That NW tactically hoped the smaller (still unauthorised) amount would easily get a Judgment ( they did) ; that they could then slip in a quick charging order (they failed) ; that they would then let enough time lapse to lull me into a false sense of security ; that then they would get Shoosmiths to re-commence the Claim to try to increase the payments and get a charging order ; that then NW would suddenly present the much larger (unauthorised) amount as also owing, in the hope the Judge would not ask questions and wham bham I suddenly have a huge debt under a charging order, all unauthorised by me, and effectively illegal ???????


Their timing is immaculate. The reason they went for the charging order in the first place is because Slimeball Shoosmiths failed to cash a cheque I sent at Christmas and thus it appeared as if I wasn't sticking to the Judgment terms of £20/month. It was a perfect time to play slimeball games, when most people are busy being happy and distracted. Now, Shoosmiths have re-commenced writing to me, and probably others too, just before school summer holidays, again another time when people might be away and letters go unanswered for long enough to draft a new claim, which again might go unanswered, leading to a quick Judgment in absence...


Hmmmmm. Maybe my imagination is getting the better of me. But somehow I doubt it. And thanks to you Paul and Debs, maybe now I can fight this correctly.

But maybe more than that. With the change of cabinet last month, I now find myself with a contact in #11. ;)

I think that once my issue with NW is en-route, it will be time to highlight to those in power what the slimeball banks/solicitors are really getting up to....


Now on that note, I am off out to enjoy the sunshine !!


Thanks, Sparkie


To you and anyone else - Firstly could I just reply to their letter asking them to send all the details on the Ltd Co, as that is what I had asked for under the SAR, and that if they refuse to, ask them on what grounds -explaining/pointing out the obvious to them that I was the only person in the company ?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to force them to put in writing why they won't divulge the information to me ? Then I will know how to argue to get the info ??


I am also not sure I understand what you are saying ?

I want to find out what they have done with my Ltd Company account. I want to track what has happened to it. They are holding me responsible for the Ltd Co debt, so how can they refuse to show me what they have done to the account ?


Secondly, NW already took a claim against me - would it be possible to send them a CPR 31.14 ? And a CPR 18 ? Albeit 2 years later. To force them to provide the information. CPR 31.16 is when I am going to issue proceedings, so could I get round the potential set of circumstances that you predict, by asking the courts to re-open the claim ?


I need to sort this out.

At the moment I have a ccj for over £5k on an account I never approved. And behind the scenes, on the same newly set up "loan" account there is now a balance heading upwards every quarter with rates of interest I never agreed to either. They have set up this account without my knowledge or approval.

They took a Limited Company, of which I was the sole director, and turned the company current account into a personal "loan" account, without my authorisation. And now you are telling me that because it was a Limited Company, they do NOT have to divulge to me why they did this or how they did this ? Yet they hold me accountable for this new account, under terms I never agreed to ?

How can this be legal ?

And how can I force them to give me the details I have asked for ?

You mention Sect 2 of the New Fraud Act 2006. I will check this out. It sounds very serious. Would it be sending off a letter like the SAR ? Or more formal through the courts ?


Alternatively, the solicitors have suggested their client - NW - may go back to court to get an increase in what I am paying monthly. Would this be an opportunity to get them to divulge the information ? Or would they continue to hide the information from me.


What slime balls they are....

Seems they have a trick up every sleeve.

Well I refuse to be beaten on this one.


Section 2 or 3, of the Fraud Act 06 ?


2 Fraud by false representation


(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if—

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—

(a) the person making the representation, or

(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).


3 Fraud by failing to disclose information


A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


I found this in the Data Protection Act.


Q. What is “personal data”?

A. Personal data is any information about you which can be linked back to you as an identifiable data subject either on its own or by the use of identifiers allowing it to be matched with some other data which may be held about you by some other data controller


Couldn't it be argued that my name is linked to the Ltd co ?

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HP Mum I won't disclose on an open forum the reason why & those in the know understand why but its not just desirable its ESSENTIAL that you take Paul Waltons advice. Its also essential that you appoint a solicitor to act as Shoosmiths will try & bamboozle you whereas they won't if you have lawyers acting.


As we definitely know that Shoosmiths read this forum remove anything which may ID you otherwise they WILL use it against you in court so contact him via PM & he may be able to recommend lawyers who will act for you free of charge;)

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Thanks JC.

Fore-warned :)

Won't it be NW that I have to deal with now by sending these letters? Or are Shoos just par for the course ?

It seems my story is the same as many, so fingers crossed they don't id me...

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hello again,


The NW current account as discussed above was for my Limited Company.


I have sent a SAR to NW asking for all details on both this limited company business current account and the new "loan" account that they created in my name.

Now I have a question:

Can NW refuse to supply information in respect of the limited company ?


FYI - I was the company - the sole director ; the sole employee. And the company has since been closed down.


If NW refuse to supply all the requested details regarding the limited company account - how can I re-word the SAR to get the info ? Or is there an alternative route to go ?


Thanks in advance...

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The NW current account as discussed above was for my Limited Company.


Unless they can produce a personal gurantee, signed by you. You are not liable for the LTD companies debts.



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