HSBC where do I stand ?

[Fisher King]

Hello, this is going to be a LONG post, so grab a cup of tea of something

 

This is all with regards to an HSBC Goldvisa.

 

on 23 Jan 2008 CapQuest wrote to me to say that HSBC had appointed them as Debt Recovery agents, and stated that all future contact regarding payments should be directed towards them.

They requested immediate payment of the full outstanding balance.

 

on 12 March 2008 Metropolitan Collection Services Ltd wrote saying they had been instructed to recover the outstanding debt, and asked that I telephone them to confirm when the full balance of £x,xxx.xx will be made. plus the normal threat of pay up within 7 days or legal proceedings may be issued etc.

 

A bit frightened by this I worked as much as I could and scraped together £200 which they got on 26th March 2008.

 

They wrote back on the 27th March 2008 and thanked me for the £200 payment, and asked me to make a firm commitment of repayments by writing how much I'd pay per week/month and said in order for the offer to be considered I MUST provide my details e.g whether I'm a home owner/tenant/living with parents/employed/unemployed/student etc plus they wanted my home telephone number, work telephone number, mobile number, my email address then a SIGNATURE and the form had to be dated.

 

I didn't send that back as someone had already told me not to commit to anything until I was better able to understand my position.

 

Nothing happened for a while then a letter from DG Solicitors arrived dated 19 August 2008, thanking me for a recent payment to the account and that they now wanted a proposal to clear the balance, and it said they may not be able to prevent further court action if I failed to respond immediately.

 

I take exception the the statement "further court action" as none had occurred previously, so how could there be further action?

 

Still in a panic, I offered £50 a month which they accepted.

 

The next letter on 16 Sept 2008 was just a thanks for payment and a standing order mandate.

 

Lack of cash meant I missed a payment so they wrote on 8th October 2008 saying they where disappointed that I'd failed to pay as promised, and said as a result of that they had been instructed to take legal action against me to recover the balance, and added that this may result in substantial costs being added to the balance. To prevent action I must pay £50 each month, and it said telephone them if I wished to pay by CREDIT or Debit Card.

I thought DCA's where not allowed to encourage you or lead you into further debt?

 

Still struggling along I get a letter from Central Debt Recovery Unit, PO box 4093, Worthing, West Sussex on 10 November 2008 saying that the 'debt' had been referred to them for immediate collection, saying that they specialise in recovery of debt where normal methods of recovery have proved ineffective.

This scared the poop out of me as it conjured up images of shaven headed tall and stocky as you like thugs calling on me 'for a chat ' perhaps.

The letter said before they arrange a 'doorstep representative' to call on me they where prepared to give me a final opportunity to pay voluntarily.

 

They asked for the full balance of £xxxx.xx within 8 days.

Beside myself with worry, I called and offered the £50 but they didn't want to know, and eventually they got me to say £75 a month.

 

Worried to the point I wasn't sleeping or eating I eventually started to tell friends and family about my situation, and a friend told me to request a CCA to see where I stood since I never signed anything and the card was sent without me even asking for it in the first place.

 

The next letter off them on 19 November 2008 said as a concession only they would allow me to pay by instalments, and sent a standing order form attatched to the letter.

 

On the same day ( 19 November 2008 ) I sent the CCA request letter which was written from a template here, and on the 24 November 2008 I had a letter back from Central Debt Recovery Unit saying they have requested a copy agreement from their client ( HSBC I assume ) and that they would forward it upon receipt. They returned my £1 postal order and said it was not required.

 

On the 10 December 2008 I got a letter from them entitled OVERDUE PAYMENT and it said that it was imperative I make a payment of £75 within 48 hours to avoid further action. The letter had a Bank Giro Credit form attached for easy payment.

 

Odd... I thought, as I had been told that they could not harass me further until they had provided me with the CCA.

 

The next letter from them is not dated but said they will be calling me on

3 Jan 2009 ( a Saturday ) between 8am and 9pm, and said if I didn't want them calling me, I had to call them.

 

I didn't take the call, the phone rang many times that day so I went out, I just couldn't take it any more.

 

I got another letter from them on 18 Feb 2009 entitled LIMITED DISCOUNT OFFER, in which they said they understood I was experiencing financial difficulties and with that in mind they said thie clients where prepared to make a generous DISCOUNT of 30% as full and final settlement subject to payment being received within 14 days, and that subject to full and final they would arrange to mark my credit file as SATISFIED.

 

Surely all this is DATA Movement and activity on the account which should NOT be happening until they send a valid CCA to which I doubt there is one as I signed nothing?

 

3 April 2009 another letter saying the account is being prepared to be passed to their agents on 15 April 2009, who may instruct debt collectors to call at my home, and as a ONE OFF OPPORTUNITY their clients are prepared to give me a discount of 30% and failure to call them before 15 April 2009 or failure to respond to the letter by that date WILL result in the account being passed to a debt collection agency.

 

I do nothing as I was told to sit tight by friends and family and wait for the CCA.

 

On 13 May 2009 Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited ~Pre-Court Division sent me a letter saying they have been instructed to collect an overdue debt of £xxxx.xx from me. It states that it is a legal requirement to send a notice of intended litigation before legal proceedings in the County Court are issued and they believe that the letter fulfils that requirement even if it not actually read by me.

It goes on to say that to prevent legal action from being taken by external solicitors instructed on behalf of their client, it is essential that the debt is settled without delay. Payment should be submitted in full within 7 days or contact made with their office immediately by telephone or letter with a payment offer. It says they or their client do not wish to take this action but if agreement cannot be reached by 20 May 2009 a claim may be issued by their clients solicitors without further notice. It goes on to draw my attention that if a Judgment and order for repayment in full is obtained and remains unpaid, the following enforcement options are available abd may be considered.

1. Warrant of execution by bailiffs against goods owned.

2. Application for attachment of earnings order with a present of future employer.

3.Application for a charging order on any property owned or currently purchasing under a mortgage ( where th ebalance outstanding is of a suffiecient level )

The letter says all payments must be payable to "Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd" and forwarded to the address on the letter.

 

Nearly there....

 

Next letter from Moorcroft dated 22 May 2009 is headed DISCOUNT OFFER

and says despite previous letters I have failed to make any payment to them and therefore the account has now been passed to their Home Collections Division for action.

Letter goes on to say this may involve their local representative calling at my home address within the next few days to seek to assist me and try to establish ho wI propose to settle the outstanding balance.

If no agreement is satisfactory it may leave them no alternative but to recommend to their client that thay instruct their solicitors to commence legal proceedings against me without further notice.

 

*sigh* it all goes quiet, nobody calls at my door, letters stop,

CCA is STILL outstanding....

 

then I get an envelope with a yellow card inside titled WARNING!

REf No. xxxxxxx

Outstanding Balance £xxxx.xx

Client Name HSBC BANK PLC

 

and dated 3 February 2010 from Allied International Credit (UK) Limited, Anderston House, 389 Argyle Street, GLASGOW G2 8LR ( but envelope says return addres PO Box 2135 Reading Berkshire RG4 5WG )

 

The card states "Our client has informed us that under their terms and conditions, a Formal Demand has been made, payment of th efull outstanding balance must be made immediately.

Should you need to discuss your account please call Mr R Watson on 0141 2283008"

 

Then on 27 April 2010 I get an HSBC letter stating my bank account number and advising me that they have debited my account on 23 April 2010 by £200 and the details section says Funds have been transferred from your bank account xxxxxx xxxxxxxx to your credit card debt xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx currently DG Solicitors with as per out right of Set Off.

 

Please note that this item will appear on the statement with the description "DR ADVISED" , and if I have any questions or would like to discuss it, to call them on the HSBC telephone number 0845 600 6423

 

There we go... I'm up to date on letters sent and received.

 

I'm annoyed that after sending the CCA they continued to pass the account around to varying DCA's and carried on asking for money, making threats etc, and STILL the CCA has not arrived! I'm very annoyed that £200 has been taken from my account. They cant get any more because I don't have anymore, but that must have been taken to service a credit card debt that was STILL disputed on account of the CCA documents being outstanding, and therefore no data or account details should have been passed or actioned upon due to that fact. How can they , even using the set off rule, service an account that should be frozen/disputed?

 

Where do I stand?

 

Can anyone knowledgeable here count up the number of offences and list which offences? ( data movement, harassment, misleading information, outright lies etc )

 

I'm at the end of my wits and tether with this.

 

What is my very next course of action? ( I need to be led I'm afraid )

 

Many Thanks for your time.

( I bet that cup of tea has gone cold.. better make another )

[harrassed senior]

Phew, thank you for such concise information.

 

Your Account is in dispute due to non compliance with the CCA request.

 

You need to send the Account in Dispute Letter

 

Letter used when a company fail to provide a copy of your agreement within the 12+2 working days timescale after your initial request for a copy of your agreement made under s 77/8 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Highlights in red must be edited)

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 days after you made the initial request).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

The fact that they have no enforceable agreement can be taken from their numerous discount letters.

 

No need to feel bad, this is just 'stuff' and they can do absolutely nothing to you.

[PGH7447]

well it has certainly been passed around the houses, which is a very good indication there is no agreement so send the letter above and have a nice weekend - I would honestly say you are home free

[zingy]

An interesting read.

 

My CC account with HSBC is in dispute with MCS at the moment and has been for a number of months. If they can't send you a copy of the agreement then just file the threat-o-grams with the rest of your paperwork.

[Pinky69]

It's certainly been round the houses. Send anyone who contacts you the Account in Dispute letter then ignore them. They have no power over you whatsoever. They rely on frightening people, which they managed in your case. One "boo" and they are off. Relax - you don't have to pay another penny. And don't let a DCA upset you ever again!

[jamanji]

What a read , Just listen to the folks on here , they have already walked in your shoes, im certanley taking there advise,

Dont worry if folk on here tell you not to , ChiiiiiiLLLLL

[Fisher King]

Well here's an update...

 

After sending the 'account in dispute letter' to Central Debt Recovery Ltd due to the above paper trail continuing to bombard me..., they went quiet

( no confirmation etc ) and Now I've gotten these two following letters.

 

The first letter is dated 16th June 2010 from S.R.J Debt Recoveries Ltd.

 

Entitled PENDING LITIGATION PROCEEDINGS

sub headed Your credit rating will be seriously affected if a Court judgment is obtained against you.

 

The letter reads:-

 

Client : HSBC

Re: 3rd Part Ref : Credit Card

Acc Number: ( a really long hexadecimal number! which is new )

Client reference: XXXXXXXX

Service Address : address obviously. same as addressed to.

 

Dear XXX

You have failed to arrange and/or maintain a payment plan on this debt and it is now our clients intention to issue litigation proceedings to recover the overdue sums through your local court.

 

If this step is taken, solicitors costs, court fee's and intrest will be added to your account.

 

Once a claim is issued and a court judgment obtained failure to pay could result in one of the following enforcement actions:

Warrant of Execution

Attatchment of Earnings

Charging Order

Bankruptcy

 

Even at this late stage, we are able to help you arrange an affordable payment plan to fit in with your expenditure budget but you must contact us immediately.

 

Your Sincerely SRJ Debt Recoveries Ltd.

 

---------------------------

 

the Second Letter from the same company is entitled

 

REFERRAL FOR LITIGATION

 

same details etc...

 

Dear XXX

 

Our client, HSBC, has made every effort to try and help you resolve the above outstanding debt however they have now passed the account to us for recovery.

We now have only 7 days to agree an affordable payment plan on your account.

If by then we have not heard from you your account will be referred for consideration for a County Court ( or Sheriff Court if appropriate ) claim to be issued at:

 

and it gives the address again as written and delivered to.

 

To avoid this action you must contact us within the next 7 days.

 

Pay now at http://www.srjpay ( i'm not giving them a bloomin free link ) .com

 

------------------------------

 

WHAT DO I DO ? I'm so sick of this, even after sending the account in dispute letter they ( DCA's ) continue to pass my data around against all known DCA laws!

 

What happen if I end up with County Court papers on the doormat when they should never have been sent my data in the first place due to the fact my data should not have been passed to anyone else after I sent the CCA originally, and now Account in Dispute letter.

 

If I have to complain officially, is there anyone here experienced enough with this subject willing to take it on or at least guide me step by step and proof read my letters before sending off? I'm not too clever, and I really don't want to mess it up.

[harrassed senior]

Load of threatening rubbish meant to frighten and upset you.

 

Send the letter below and send them scuttling back whence they came:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/574-letter-when-account-has-been-passed-on-whilst-agreement-request-is-in-dispute

[harrassed senior]

This is quite normal behaviour for them all, you can, if you wish make an official complaint to whosever sold it on, but the latest DCA will send it back to them anyway.

 

You can complain quite easily online at Consumer Direct for the OFT and Trading Standards. Just fill in their forms.

 

If you are at all worried, don't be, this really is par for the course, so forget it and enjoy all the weekend sunshine out there its free!!!!!

 

Seriously though, I know you probably think it is easy to say by the likes of me, but I have been close to suicide over debts prior to finding the wonderful people of CAG, and many many of us have 'been there, done that' and once you realise YOU are in charge NOT them it becomes so much easier.

[Fisher King]

Hi, and thanks for your help i have sent the letters recorded; just waiting for them to reply!.

I'll post back as soon as I hear from them.

Thank you again

Edited July 12, 2010 by Fisher King

[Fisher King]

Sorry its late, got a letter back saying the following -

.............................................................................................

Dear xxxxx

 

We thank you for your recent communication and note the contents.

 

We confirm that we are taking instuctions from our client and will revert to you shortly. In the meantime we have placed the account on hold.

 

Yours sincerely, SRJ Debt Recoveries Ltd.

 

........................................................................................

 

So.....I feel as though its gonna get passed on again,again and again,"How can i make it come to an end!!!! :mad:" do i sit back and wait for another letter or is there something i can send to make it stop!

 

Thanks Fisher King

[Fisher King]

Latest Update....

 

Even though My CCA is STILL outstanding ( effectively account frozen? )

 

HSBC have just taken £1,500 out of my bank account.

 

I know I only have myself to blame as I did not close the account, just emptied it.

I got a cheque for a job I'm doing ( £4,000 ), and as I was away for two weeks, when the first instalment/payment arrived. Not being able to contact me, my mother put it into the HSBC bank.

The second it cleared HSBC took £1,500 out.

 

Some will argue if I owed it then I must pay it, but that's not what is in question. It's whether I am/was legally required to repay it as I've never signed anything, and this was in question at the time they took it.

 

What they do not realize is, the job I'm doing, has required alot of materials, and that cheque going in was to allow me to pay for the material costs on an account I have at the local builders merchant.

The second half ( cheque ) of the overall job cost is not due to me yet, but now I'm left with a situation where I cannot pay my outstanding builders merchant account for materials already used, therefore they will not let me get any more materials on account ( which I need to finish the job! ) If I cannot finish the job, I'm in DEEP do do and my name as a self employed tradesman will be tarnished permanently ( I live in a small town )

 

What can I LEGALLY do as regards to having HSBC re-instate the money to my bank account? ( it's a personal account and I do not have a seperate business account )

 

Surely they should never have taken it out as whether I owed anything was in question ( legally at least ) and the credit card account was frozen ( them not allowed to chase payment until the CCA request has been met )

[Fisher King]

....bump...

 

 

Anyone ????

[42man]

I don't think there is much you can do to be honest, they saw their chance and they took it and they can offset against debts and even other accounts owned by you. If you start arguing that there isn't a CCA then you could potentially lose more money in a court battle....and HSBC would probably be able to reconstitute one if push came to shove.

[harrassed senior]

Sorry it has come to this, I realise there is so much information on this site, but removing any banking you have in other parts of the Bank you have a dispute with is always a prudent move as they do have, and WILL use the right to offset. As 42 man says, its' a bit like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted, to try and proceed against them any further.