You Can't Complain If You Don't Vote

[Tezcatlipoca]

Given the current climate, I thought I'd wheel this one out to see what other people think.

 

Firstly, I should say that I do not vote. I am not apathetic about voting; my decision is a distinct, clear choice to make my political stance by wilfull non-participation in the electoral system of this country, which is rather different from choosing not to vote because I don't feel any of the choices are relevant to me.

 

I've heard people whinge that that stance gives you no right to complain (and by extension, comment at all) on the society in which we live. I believe this statement to be in error. I shall go further, I believe those who spout it are often politically ignorant and socially naive.

 

I work for a living. I work very hard and long hours and I am rewarded for my labour. Part of that reward is of course ploughed back into the society in which I live in the form of various taxes.

I am thus both a contributer to - and consumer in - this society, and it is that which dicates I have every right to complain about the system if I feel it necessary to do so, since I contribute in every way that I believe relevant to our society.

 

Now, there is of course an argument to be made for ballot spoling, but I think this rather misses the point. Ballot spoiling, whilst a perfectly commendable political act, is in itself a validation of our electoral system, and, consequently, not really any different from turning up and the booth and putting an X on a random person.

 

If the electoral system were changed, let's say to porportional representation, then I might be more inclined to vote, but for the moment the chances of my scrawling an X on a ballot sheet are slightly less than zero.

 

So, what do other CAGers feel about this? And are there any others who choose not to vote, and, if so, why? Remember, there is no right or wrong answer to this one, I'm just curious to hear other people's thoughts and ideas (especially if those ideas are to support a total rejection of our political system and my own ascension to dictator).

Edited May 1, 2010 by Tezcatlipoca

[SOD'EM]

I'm not on the electoral role, so I can't vote. It's safer for me that way.

[caro]

I think we all have a duty to vote. As a woman, people have given their lives for me to have the opportunity to do so, and it undermines their sacrifice if we don't take the opportunity to do so, not to mention our social responsibility.

 

As there is not the option not to vote or a "Don't Know" box, I prefer the option of ballot spoiling as this act shows that voters have taken the time and trouble to turn up to make their point. Not turning up implies apathy.

 

No-one will agree with every policy on any of the manifestoes, but if proportional representation is your preference (which I agree is fairer but difficult to achieve with a mobile population), then the obvious thing to do is to vote Lib Dem in order to achieve your goal. Obviously if the rest of their policies are unacceptable that isn't an option.

 

I do think the PR argument needs airing.

 

In my case I find myself in a different constituency due to boundary changes which no-one had thought to mention, and no sight nor sound of our unknown candidates.

[babybear39]

As an adult, I believe that it is my duty and responsibility to help decide, in a balanced and informed way, the people who will form the next government of the UK.

 

This new government may not be my personal prefered choice but I fully respect the wishes of my fellow Brits

 

To harbour any misapropriated ideas of whether you can criticise if you don't do your civic duty is entirely (morally) bankrupt.

 

Put up OR shut up

 

You cannot just opt in to the parts of society that you wish to engage with

[Bookworm]

I've heard people whinge that that stance gives you no right to complain (and by extension, comment at all) on the society in which we live. I believe this statement to be in error. I shall go further, I believe those who spout it are often politically ignorant and socially naive.

 

Remember, there is no right or wrong answer to this one, I'm just curious to hear other people's thoughts and ideas (especially if those ideas are to support a total rejection of our political system and my own ascension to dictator).

See highlighted. I'd argue that your choice (subconscious or otherwise) of words rather says otherwise than your last sentence.

 

Nevertheless, being one of those whinging spouters to whom you refer, I feel I must respond.

 

I believe that the political ignorance and naivety lies in believing that not voting for whatever reason is a real choice. By not voting, the abstainee muzzles himself and may be handing the power to those who DO vote, not necessarily in the direction the abstainee would have chosen.

Example: From our conversations on here, I am going to surmise that a BNP government would be particularly odious to you. What if every "nah, there's noone I like" person doesn't vote, but every "England Uber Alles" does? The consequences are too horrifying to contemplate.

 

Far-fetched? Well no. I think I may have mentioned here or there the French scenario. The apathy or lack of choice or whatever reason for abstaining handed the National Front a near victory, pushing the left in THIRD place, because the extreme right DID go to vote. At the 2nd round of the election, people were left a choice between the far right or the extreme right. And thus teachers, nurses, and so many others who stood not a chance under the far right, still had to go and vote for it, as if they hadn't the alternative would have been so much worse.

 

If you don't vote, you are not "just" not voting, you are handing over the chance for your least liked ideologies to get in.

 

I understand that your point is not about that, but more focused on the "right to complain" in the aftermath. The reality is, even in this constitutional monarchy (I wish people would stop going on democracy, Britain is NOT a democracy, its head of state -the Queen- has NOT been elected by the people! anyway, I digress...), you can and will still complain if you so wish. No guarantee you would under some other of the regimes presenting themselves for election but that's again another debate. The point is if you're not happy under whichever government gets through, you will still be allowed to express your discontent.

 

I think the question is: do you have a moral right to complain? and to that, I'm sorry, but I firmly believe the answer is no. You have voluntarily abdicated your single most powerful chance of getting your voice heard, you've washed your hands of the whole process, letting others engage themselves and do the work, you have surrendered in silence, you should keep that silence.

 

I particularly like Babybear's comment that you can't pick and choose which part of society you choose to be part of. Being a citizen confers certain advantages, but also duties.

 

Like Caro, I also feel that as women, that duty is compounded by the fact that it is not that long ago that we gained that privilege, and I offer this article as a stark reminder of what they went through to give us that right so many lightly discard barely 100 years on:

 

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9803E6DF1239E733A25754C1A9669D946897D6CF

 

 

;-)

[kiptower]

wife said to me I'm voting for U'Kip

[Bookworm]

*groan*

[babybear39]

*BB holds the door while kip gets his coat*

[kiptower]

maybe I should start the "Halogen Cooker Party"

 

kip hiding under his desk in case bookie throws her cast iron fying pan his way

[babybear39]

Le crueset is not reserved for the French

[Bookworm]

How did you know I had a Le Creuset set???

[kiptower]

all good cooks have them, I had them for years they were the thing to buy back in the 70's just need strong wrists to pick the dam frying pan up

[babybear39]

I admit I cannot pick one up at the mo (that's for the DWP incase they get excited and dis allow my change of circs claim) but they look pretty

[Bookworm]

Same here, I still have my set of pans, but can't actually use them anymore, they knacker my back. I use Tefal light ones instead which I can at least use with one hand!

[kiptower]

Mrs Kip bought the new tefal ones also with the red circle, the wok, 32 cm frying pan and 2 smaller frying pans, her excuse was it wont hurt so much when I clobber you, nearly £50 worth

[Fred Bassett]

I agree with the headline. Everything else you have stated is superfluous.

[Fred Bassett]

(I wish people would stop going on democracy, Britain is NOT a democracy, its head of state -the Queen- has NOT been elected by the people!

 

Nor has Gordon Brown.

[Bookworm]

GB is not the head of State.

[Fred Bassett]

GB is not the head of State.

 

I know. He's an unelected Prime Minister.

[Fred Bassett]

Here's a nice thought:

 

Gordon Brown the 'Former' MP. I know, I know, it's because of boundary changes. Either way, he'll be a former PM next week. Apart from interim PMs, like Margaret Beckett, has there ever been one that has never been elected? If there hasn't Brown will hold that not-too-distinguished record soon.

 

Fred

[Tezcatlipoca]

I know. He's an unelected Prime Minister.

 

...and Europe has foisted restrictive laws upon honest, upstanding, White Britons, we've heard it all before.

 

On a more serious side, I'm extremely gratified to see the thread has generated such an emotive and intelligent response from others, which is precisely why I started it.

 

Now let's change track here for a moment and assume Uncle Tez has been playing Devil's Advocate to generate debate. Let's now assume that I do vote, and have done since I left home, but that in this election I am choosing to use my vote on local rather than national issues.

 

For example, my constituency here in Brighton is known as Brighton Pavillion. It returns one MP and the current runners for this year are Independent, UKIP, Socialist Labour, Green, Liberal Democract, Conservative and Citizens for the Undead Rights and Equality (no, this last one is not a joke).

 

My vote will be going to the Caroline Lucas, the Green candidate.

This decision carries no expectation of a Green win at a national level; rather, it is a clear support of Dr Lucas' policies at a local level, and specifically where the rights of the LGBT electorate are concerned.

It is partly a desire to see a Green MP in the Commons, but let's leave that to one side for the moment and concentrate purely on the local level.

 

Now the same question applies. I am voting Green on local issues and for local reasons. I am not voting Conservative because I wish to see them win, and neither am I voting Labour to keep the Conservatives out of power.

Despite this, you could argue that my decision to vote locally is a wasted vote nationally, since the party Dr Lucas represents stands, let's be honest here, absolutely no chance of getting into power.

 

Would this also remove the right of somebody to complain about a particular aspect of their society under the heel of an alternative government? And before answering, remember that I am voting Green to total expectation of a Tory and/or Labour win.

 

I'd be interested to hear your responses...

[Fred Bassett]

...and Europe has foisted restrictive laws upon honest, upstanding, White Britons, we've heard it all before.

 

Has it? Did I miss the election of Gordon Brown as Prime Minister?

 

I do actually agree with you about using your vote by the way, which is what you intended the thread to be about. I'll be using mine and always have.

[Fred Bassett]

To answer your question, a vote for the Greens is of course a wasted vote in one way because they won't form a government and probably won't have any MPs either. But you could argue that a certain percentage of the vote gives any party a sort of legitimacy and that includes racist parties like the BNP. PR would give both the Greens and the BNP seats in Parliament.

 

If you use your vote you are entitled to complain though, which is your original suggestion.

[Tezcatlipoca]

To answer your question, a vote for the Greens is of course a wasted vote in one way because they won't form a government and probably won't have any MPs either.

 

On the latter point, As I said, my constituency returns a member of parliament, and, if current polls are anything to go by, the burrough is overwhelmingly voting Green, which will mean a Green representative in the House of Commons.

 

As to whether the Greens will win this General Election, the answer is obviously no. However, my vote is still going to them due not only to their campaign policies and their specific relevance to where and how I live, but also on their past record which - taken on its own merits - has been excellent, and - taken in comparison to other parties - exemplary.

 

But does this form of voting remove your right to complain when the Labourservatives win the election? Of course not. But then is voting for a party you know full well stands, at least for the time being, no hope of mainstream success any less of a wasted vote than not voting at all?

Edited May 1, 2010 by Tezcatlipoca

[Fred Bassett]

Not necessarily. As I said, my constituency returns a member of parliament, and, if current polls are anything to go by, the burrough is overwhelmingly voting Green, which will mean a Green representative in the House of Commons.

 

As to whether the Greens will win this General Election, the answer is obviously no. However, my vote is still going to them due not only to their campaign policies and their specific relevence to where and how I live, but also on their past record which - taken on its own merits - has been excellent, and - taken in comparison to other parties - exemplary.

 

But does this form of voting remove your right to complain when the Labourservatives win the election? Of course not. But then is voting for a party you know full well stands, at least for the time being, no hope of mainstream success any less of a wasted vote than not voting at all?

 

No. The answer is almost in the question. You are entitled to vote for whichever party you want and for whatever reason. There will be a lot of wasted votes on Thursday by people who vote for the party of their choice even though that party has no chance of winning that seat. That vote may be for one of the main parties or it may be for a minority party like the Greens.

 

After the election, the Greens will be able to say that x% of the public voted for them - if that is a relatively large proportion, like say 5%, they can at least claim that their policies have some legitimacy with the electorate. That might enable them to influence Government policy.

 

I have a vote and I should use it as far as I'm concerned, even if others think I've wasted it. Vote for the Greens, vote for the Monster Raving Loonies, but just vote.