Coucil Tax - court order - legal?

[Vinny Jones]

Hi all,

 

In a nutshell,

 

I have had the bailiffs round a few times and now they are eyeing up my car - and I want to avoid my car being taken at all costs.

 

As far as I am aware they have not made any written notice of levying.

 

The debt is more than 6yo old.

 

I did not live at my previous address for a full 12 months so the amont is disputed by me.

 

Lastly, I checked the court liability order date which is 3rd February, 2009. (Over 1 year old).

 

I have just sent the bailiffs a letter asking for all the details they hold on me plus a screenshot ( I got that info here).

 

Am still worried that they might just pitch up and take the car.

 

I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me.

 

Am aware of some basics - i have never let them in - but they have tried to scare me by writing my reg no on one of their notes stuffed thru the door.

 

Thanks in anticipation

[ploddertom]

In your position I would be very careful as if they have made a note of your car they could well have done a levy on it already. You say they have made a note of the reg no - are you sure this hasn't been written on a Seizure of Goods notice. Your best bet otherwise is to make sure your car is hidden well away from your property.

 

To find out more about the Liability Order you should ring the Council and ask what period of time it covers, how much it is for, how much is still outstanding and when they passed it to the Bailiffs. I do find it strange that you say they have called a few times but have left no paperwork.

 

Pt

[Vinny Jones]

Thanks PT,

 

When they have called I have not been in apart from 2 occasions but they slip a peice of paper thru letterbox saying I must call to arrange payment.

Its just a standard letter. I can't remember all the details as it is for council tax going back to 2004.

 

First time it was a note scribbled with a relatives car reg. no.

So I paid no attention as I thought it was a scare tactic. I threw it away (a mistake). But i knew the car was going to be 100 miles away the next day.

'Phoned the council this morning to confirm the amount and indicated that I wanted to pay the debt to them.

 

I will then pay bailiffs (costs only) for 2 visits only, as per other posts (on bailiff costs) to avoid my car been impounded.

Yesterday, I posted a letter (recorded delevery) asking for the bailiffs full breakdown costs.

 

Am hoping this will buy me some more time to assess what I owe the council - the council said I will get a letter from them in about a week.

[ploddertom]

Thanks PT,

 

When they have called I have not been in apart from 2 occasions but they slip a peice of paper thru letterbox saying I must call to arrange payment.

Its just a standard letter. I can't remember all the details as it is for council tax going back to 2004.

 

First time it was a note scribbled with a relatives car reg. no.

So I paid no attention as I thought it was a scare tactic. I threw it away (a mistake). But i knew the car was going to be 100 miles away the next day.

'Phoned the council this morning to confirm the amount and indicated that I wanted to pay the debt to them.

 

I will then pay bailiffs (costs only) for 2 visits only, as per other posts (on bailiff costs) to avoid my car been impounded.

Yesterday, I posted a letter (recorded delevery) asking for the bailiffs full breakdown costs.

 

Am hoping this will buy me some more time to assess what I owe the council - the council said I will get a letter from them in about a week.

 

It will buy no further time should the Bailiff turn up. The worst aspect could be that whoever you have spoken to on the phone may not actually work for the Council - some outsource this work - the person you have spoken to may work for a Company called Capita who also happen to own a bailiff Company called Equita!! As for the letter they could have told you this on the phone!!

 

 

PT

[Vinny Jones]

I have a copy of the liability order with me here.

 

The bailiff company is not Equita - but you make a good point about outsourcing the work, on reflecting the conversation, I think it may have been an outsourced company but can't be sure.

I could have got the details on the 'phone but reading thru the forum most ppl seem to say make sure you get everything in writing...

[Vinny Jones]

Anybody got any thoughts on my wife using her car to block my car on the drive?

 

Do they have powers to get round that?

 

Help!

[hallowitch]

unless your car is on finance you are better moving it well away from your home

 

The bailiffs not there to remove it (just yet) he has to levy it first this will add more to the debt and give the bailiff more power they can then demand a payment plan that you cant afford this also increases the debt as they can then add a van fee

 

It is then removed to be sold at auction if the debt is not paid

 

they can also levy your wifes car if you were married/ living together at the time as you would both be responsible for the council tax

[Vinny Jones]

Below is a copy of the letter I sent to the bailiffs by recorded delivery, will this buy me time???

Am more worried now then before I came on the forum.

I have not received, so far as I am aware, a notice of seizure of goods.

It has been warnings to put my account on the 'removals list' if payment is not received.

This is a copy of the letter I sent them;

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

26th April, 2010

Ref: Account No: xxxxxx

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

 

With reference to the above account. Can you please provide me with a

breakdown of the charges including Computer Screenshot. This is not a

Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10.

I also require the name of the attending Bailiff and the name of the Court

he was Certificated at. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Cc. xxxxxx Solicitors

[hallowitch]

send the letter unfortunately nothing will buy you time when it comes to bailiffs

 

unless you can get the council to put the debt on hold until you have confirmation that you do indeed owe the debt and the amount that you owe

[RaeUK]

Hi Vinny Jones, could you confirm Hallowitchs question as to whether the car is on HP? Or is it a very old vehicle of only residual value? Also, is there anything in the households personal circumstances that may be of interest? Just curious...

Best wishes

Rae

[Vinny Jones]

Hi Vinny Jones, could you confirm Hallowitchs question as to whether the car is on HP? Or is it a very old vehicle of only residual value? Also, is there anything in the households personal circumstances that may be of interest? Just curious...

Best wishes

Rae

 

 

The car is owned outright with a vlaue of 10k - hence my concerns. But the bailiffs don't know this as yet.

[Vinny Jones]

am very disappointed with this forum to be honest - i have some money that i can pay the council but I don't owe the full amount thats why i have maybe mistakenly procratinated.

 

I am merely determined to pay in full the amount I justly owe to the relevant council.

For my sins I refuse to be ripped off by charlatan bailiffs.

I only want justice - am willing to pay my 'lawful' debt, but nothing more.

[RaeUK]

Ok VJ, thanks for that. I presume that the household are fully fit with not a whiff of illness, pregnancy or benefits about them...

Best wishes

Rae

[RaeUK]

am very disappointed with this forum to be honest ...

 

Err, not really the best way to gain advice - given that you only started this thread today and many people are yet to see it. I'm still fishing for things that may assist you. Lucky I don't get disappointed so quickly...

Best wishes

Rae

[Vinny Jones]

thanks rae - am just frustrated. Don't mean to be provacative. My wife is newly pregnant and am probably too overbearing in my efforts to protect her from unnecessary stress.

Am also aware that I can affford to pay the debt and do recognise that maybe, quite rightly, am less deserving of sympathy than other ppl in less favourable circumstances.

That said, I genuinely only want to receive justice and pay the amount that i genuinely owe.

I apologise if I came accross in the wrong way - my anger towards the bailiffs tactics has obviously overspilled in the direction of ppl that do not deserve it and are actually trying to help me.

Sorry for being a dick...

[RaeUK]

Cool VJ - no worries, congrats on the pregnancy, how many weeks? I'll post back shortly with a letter for you...

Best wishes

Rae

[RaeUK]

The National Standards for Enforcement Agents says this about vulnerable people:

 

Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents

 

Those who might be considered vulnerable include the following:

the elderly;

people with a disability;

the seriously ill;

the recently bereaved;

single parent families;

pregnant women;

unemployed people; and,

those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.

 

Don't worry about coming across wrong - I meant to put a smiley face on my post!

 

Now you know what I was fishing for. This should be passed back to the council - no bailiff fees I believe - but there may be a little letter tennis first...

 

Best wishes

Rae

[Vinny Jones]

Thanks Rae,

 

Its only 6 weeks but are our first time so very excited!!!

 

Any help is really genuinely appreciated.

 

Many thanks for your understanding.

 

VJ

[Vinny Jones]

Wow - thats great Rae - never would have thought that being preggers = vulnerable.

 

Really appreciate your help - your a diamond!

[RaeUK]

You're more than welcome.

Some people try to argue that the pregnant mother has to be at a certain stage of pregnancy. The Standards do not differentiate and - as far as I'm concerned - the first trimester is just as important as the third.

I have a template for early pregnancy so will post shortly.

Best wishes

Rae

[Vinny Jones]

Thanks Rae,

 

Its really good of you to go to all this trouble.

 

Am truly grateful.

 

VJ

[Vinny Jones]

Slightly off topic - but in terms of pregnancy i always thought that 1st trimester was the most worrying in terms of miscarriage etc thats why am being over protective and force feeding folic acid and stocking up on folic acid and fruit and veg! Just looking forward to being a daddy for the first time!

 

VJ

[RaeUK]

Absolutely, VJ, it will be an anxious time for you both - but do try and enjoy the process!

 

Here is a letter for you. Feel free to use it, amend it or just plain ignore it, it's no problem...

 

............................

 

Dear Sir

 

Reference number:

 

I am writing with regard to the above account relating to a Liability Order for Council Tax arrears.

 

It would appear, from advice that I have received, my circumstances are classed as 'vulnerable' according to the National Standards for Enforcement Agents. The reason for this being my wifes pregnancy. As you may be aware this is a particularly sensitive period where health and wellbeing are paramount. Stress and pregnancy are a very fraught mix where there is real potential danger to both the expectant Mother and unborn child.

 

I will be contacting our GP and her Midwife in order to obtain evidence of her pregnancy for you. This evidence will be forwarded under separate cover at the earliest opportunity.

 

In the meantime, please visit the following site for further information:

 

Stress & Pregnancy, Fetal Affects, on MedicineNet.com

 

As the current situation is having an aggravated and detrimental affect on our health and I am very concerned for our forthcoming child, I would like to request that this account be referred back to XXX Council in order that an affordable and sustainable payment plan can be put in place.

 

I also respectfully request that, in the meantime, you do not visit our property as this would cause further undue stress and anxiety to the expectant Mother.

 

I would be grateful if you would please confirm safe receipt of this letter.

 

A copy of this letter has also been sent to XXX Council for their information.

 

Yours faithfully.

 

 

 

Please note: This correspondence is being sent by both electronic and conventional mail.

 

.......................................

 

The response you get will depend entirely on the bailiff firm / council. Some are far better than others.

The Standards apply to the household - they may try and say that as you're not pregnant it doesn't matter. If the response is negative then they have handed you the moral highground. The next step would be a request for the bailiffs complaint procedure and a Formal Complaint to the Councils CEO which will include a request for the Council to take the debt back.

 

What you need to do is:

1. Email a copy of the letter to the bailiff company. Hard copy sent by post signed for.

2. Email the Head of Revenues for the Council (optional), hard copy by post signed for with a brief covering letter.

3. Evidence of pregnancy from your wifes Midwife and / or GP.

4. Send a copy of that signed for to bailiff company and copy to Head of revenues with a brief covering letter.

 

Note that I haven't mentioned that you may / may not be in a position to pay the council in full. That you can do later. The important thing is to remove the unnecessary stress from your wife.

 

Best wishes

Rae

[ploddertom]

You can partially solve this if as you say you have the wherewithall to pay by going online to the Council or use their automated phone service to pay what you know you owe. This however will still leave the Bailiff charges outstanding and they can still enforce against these. You could:

a - pay an extra £42-50 on top of what you owe in CT to the Council

b - send the Bailiffs £42-50 direct

I say this as although Rae has given you the ammo to fire at both Council & Bailiffs, the attending Bailiff may have difficulty reading and interpreting this in the meantime and could make life unpleasant. If monies are paid then it puts you in a position of strength.

 

If you have had a couple of visits then this is what the £42-50 covers (1st Visit £24-50 - 2nd Visit £18-00). In the meantime hopefully you will get back what the breakdown of charges is, depending on what they say may give an opportunity to challenge any over & above those listed.

 

As far as your car(s) are concerned you should really hide them well away - Bailiffs are known to come early in the morning and levy on vehicles. I would also make sure you have nothing else lying round loose outside. If the bailiff gets a levy then you have a different ball game and the charges can clock up astronomically.

 

PT

[RaeUK]

It's sort of six of one and half a dozen of another tbh PT. I considered both methods and couldn't find much between them so leant towards what I know.

On the one hand the letter may / may not halt bailiff action in its tracks.

On the other, pay the council + £42.50 may still leave a bailiff calling regardless. Or not!

I guess my thinking was to hold off payment for now. Send the letter and, if the result was a negative response, pay the council + two visit fees and Formal Complaint route.

It's a difficult call and my thinking is how to try and minimise the stress to VJs wife...

I'm happy with whichever route the OP feels best serves his purpose. [Hows that for buck passing? ]

Best wishes

Rae

Edited April 28, 2010 by RaeUK