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How on earth do Welcome calculate their interest

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...but it doesnt say that on the loan agreement.

if I had signed up to that (13.20%) the fine....

but it doesnt, and the law is clear on the mis stating if interest.......

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what about the 17.30% on my loan agreement as well???

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must be a multiple loan agreement

 

14% for the acceptance fee and MIF

17.30% for the loan

 

????

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Its not a multiple loan agreement.

 

The APR is different from the flat rate.

 

The AIR is derived from the flat rate.

 

All i can suggest if you dont understand is to get an accountant to tell you. I too was just as annoyed when i found out the figures were right. If welcome had been more upfront in telling me the calculations in the first place i wouldnt have been going round in circles for months. I took some bad advice off here about how they work out the interest nd was told my agreement was unenforceabe and that led me on a right garden path. I have only just got to the real answer now and yeah its not what i wanted to hear.


As always please check and double check what myself and other Caggers inform.

 

If you like my Post please dont be shy give my Scales a little tickle :-)

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any ideas on the 17.30%?

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hi emaneves:)

 

I have just used that calculator:rolleyes:

 

1 -17.75APR (approx £20 over):eek: HIGHER

2 -16.20AIR (approx £3 under):eek: LOWER

 

FIGURES ALL WRONG:roll: "can not explain it"

 

chin up:) (any replies/opinions on APR/ AIR "mystery")

 

do not trust FOS ."just got a feeling they are in "ca hoots" with welcome.

(my personal take)

also - how many people have welcome taken to court.IF ALL thess agreements are so "kosher" why are they so reluctant to go to court:rolleyes:

 

emaneves , i believe you are going to court(sorry you could be the exception) "I dont know". keep fighting:), I WILL BE:)

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thanks happhamr!

 

I am getting my accountant to give me a view.....

 

What nobody can dispute is the figures I have uploaded which clealry demonstrate that this agreement is a load of b*lll*cks!

 

 

I am in Court at present, took them originally on unfair charges.

 

As for steven's comment about getting figures wrong well listen to this.

 

First statement from the ****, they showed loads of charges, but didnt debit them to the loan account.

 

Second statement when threatening them with CPR, got another statement totally different from all of my previous.

 

They are an absolute shower, and I am up for a fight with them either way - Court an all!

 

Lets see if they or anyone else can prove my figures are wrong with an AIR/APR calculation on this loan agreement from start to finish!!!!!!!

 

oh, and as for the FOS, they have had these calculations as well......

 

Lets see if they can dispute them and reasons why as well!!!!!!!

 

BRING IT ON!

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What nobody can dispute is the figures I have uploaded which clealry demonstrate that this agreement is a load of b*lll*cks!
I dispute it!

 

As I said before - Welcome get lots of things wrong but not their sums. The interest rates are correct. THe fact that they put something different on your statement is irrelevant - it is the agreement that counts and the interest rates on that are right.

 

Listen to what BB is telling you.

 

Interest calculations are very complicated. You need to understand some basic maths to understand it and you cannot calculate APR using a spreadsheet- it is all explained in my interest tutorial.


Steven

 

Using CAG Toolbar will generate much needed income - Download Here

 

Confused by Simple Interest? Confounded by Compound Interest? Read my Interest Tutorial

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Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

 

Please note, I will not give advice by PM. Please send a link to your thread and I will do my best to answer there.

 

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so its ok to tell a layperson they are borrowing x, but pay back y?

 

I would agree with you if you could provide from month 1 to month 121 how I repay this loan in full, including all charges, mif, and acceptance fees?

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hellow emaneves and bebobebo:)

 

I take it we all have secured loans (yes),and when we took them out we had our original (APR) yes. (all different ,of course )

 

SO WHEN did welcome inform you ,emaneves/bebobebo ,any of us of this

"magical" change/switch to AIR:confused:

How can they keep "changing the goalposts" to suit them:mad:

 

sorry bebobebo, that calculator just produced "wrong" figures in regard to my APR:confused: and AIR:confused:

 

SO MANY "CALCULATORS", so many calculations :rolleyes: (all to mislead/confuse) " a bit like wellscum:rolleyes:

 

chins up:)

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APR and AIR are not the same thing. In fact they will never be the same. APR will always be bigger than AIR

 

If you take your monthly interest rate, call that 'x'

 

AIR = 12*x

APR = (1+x)^12 - 1

 

(^ means to the power of)

 

If there are fees, the APR calculation is even more complicated. The complete formula for calculating APR is given in http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft144.pdf

 

Had a look at the above link. the apr on my agreement clearly says 17.30%

 

page 26 (1) (a) states clearly that the tolerance up to 1.0 or 0.1 below the correct APR.

 

As my agreement does not comply with this tolerance, then its unenforceable, as per schedule 6 and 7 CCA 1974.

 

The agreement also does not state the total amount payable (TAP)

Edited by emanevs

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I am sorry to be a pain!!!!

 

APR ON MY LOAN SHOWS 17.30% APR:

 

Annual interest of 17.3% means a monthly interest rate of 1.34%

 

RATE OF INTEREST PER ANNUM SHOWS 14%

 

Underneath the rate of interest per annum, it says:

 

"interest will be calculated at the rate of interest (shown as 14%), on the daily balance outstanding of the total amount of credit (shown as £25000), and the acceptance fee of £235. It will be paid as part of your monthly payments".

 

SURELY, THIS DOES NOT WORK OUT, HOW IS THE MORTGAGE INDEMNITY FEE OF £2750 PAID OFF WITHIN 121 MONTHS???????

 

AIR OR APR OR NOT!!

;)

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Thanks DX,

 

Surprise, Surprise, dont add up yet again!!!!

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hellow:)

 

on this calculator the figures add up (pennies over),but this is on 17.75 APR ( original.)

 

however if i use the AIR 16.20 which appearead 2years later it comes out roughly £20 lower:confused: (statement)

 

also why is the calculator bebobebo put on his post the figures you get are different:rolleyes:

 

emaneves :)- that is what it says at the bottom of your/my statement (yeah),the funny thing is with my next statement(dont get many:rolleyes:)their is nothing about this "intrest will be calculated at the Rate of intrest"

blah,blah,blah. just wondered why they left this bit out.:wink:

 

cheers,:-) "thanks" emaneves and dx100uk:-)

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exactly!

 

what a mess welscum!

 

I still dont agree with steven or bb - sorry people!

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emanevs

 

you have 3 different interest rates, ALL 3 are correct because they're used in different ways.

The 17.3% is the APR ... this includes charges for credit. It cannot be calculated using a spreadsheet. Consumers are told this figure because it provides the best way of comparing loans between different banks.

The 14% is the annual rate. This includes interest compounded (interest charged on interest)

13.2/12 is the monthly rate used to calculate the interest actually chargd each month. This is the figure you would put into most of the online calculators that don't have facilities to enter the other rates.

 

All 3 rates are linked to each other, they're not just magicked out of thin air.

 

My original question was how they calculate the monthly interest charges. It should be the same percentage each month, no matter what the loan agreement or statement says the interest rate is, but mine isn't. Plugging the monthly figures I have for other loans into amortisation schedules gives me the correct monthly interest charge straight away. Plugging Welcome's in doesn't, and when I reverse engineer the interest rates from their monthly figures, it's not the same rate used every month

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£27,995.00

£419.62

13.20%

£22,779.02

£50,774.02

Amortisation Table

Pmt #_Principal_Interest__Balance

1_____£111.68___£307.94___£27,883.33

2_____£112.90___£306.72___£27,770.42

3_____£114.15___£305.47___£27,656.28

4_____£115.40___£304.22___£27,540.88

5_____£116.67___£302.95___£27,424.20

6_____£117.95___£301.67___£27,306.25

7_____£119.25___£300.37___£27,187.00

8_____£120.56___£299.06___£27,066.44

9_____£121.89___£297.73___£26,944.55

10____£123.23___£296.39___£26,821.32

11____£124.59___£295.03___£26,696.73

12____£125.96___£293.66___£26,570.78

13____£127.34___£292.28___£26,443.43

14____£128.74___£290.88___£26,314.69

15____£130.16___£289.46___£26,184.53

16____£131.59___£288.03___£26,052.94

17____£133.04___£286.58___£25,919.91

18____£134.50___£285.12___£25,785.41

19____£135.98___£283.64___£25,649.42

20____£137.48___£282.14___£25,511.95

21____£138.99___£280.63___£25,372.96

22____£140.52___£279.10___£25,232.44

23____£142.06___£277.56___£25,090.38

24____£143.63___£275.99___£24,946.75

25____£145.21___£274.41___£24,801.55

26____£146.80___£272.82___£24,654.74

27____£148.42___£271.20___£24,506.33

28____£150.05___£269.57___£24,356.28

29____£151.70___£267.92___£24,204.58

30____£153.37___£266.25___£24,051.21

31____£155.06___£264.56___£23,896.15

32____£156.76___£262.86___£23,739.39

33____£158.49___£261.13___£23,580.90

34____£160.23___£259.39___£23,420.67

35____£161.99___£257.63___£23,258.68

36____£163.77___£255.85___£23,094.90

37____£165.58___£254.04___£22,929.33

38____£167.40___£252.22___£22,761.93

39____£169.24___£250.38___£22,592.69

40____£171.10___£248.52___£22,421.59

41____£172.98___£246.64___£22,248.61

42____£174.89___£244.73___£22,073.72

43____£176.81___£242.81___£21,896.91

44____£178.75___£240.87___£21,718.16

45____£180.72___£238.90___£21,537.44

46____£182.71___£236.91___£21,354.73

47____£184.72___£234.90___£21,170.01

48____£186.75___£232.87___£20,983.26

49____£188.80___£230.82___£20,794.46

50____£190.88___£228.74___£20,603.58

51____£192.98___£226.64___£20,410.60

52____£195.10___£224.52___£20,215.49

53____£197.25___£222.37___£20,018.24

54____£199.42___£220.20___£19,818.83

55____£201.61___£218.01___£19,617.21

56____£203.83___£215.79___£19,413.38

57____£206.07___£213.55___£19,207.31

58____£208.34___£211.28___£18,998.97

59____£210.63___£208.99___£18,788.34

60____£212.95___£206.67___£18,575.39

61____£215.29___£204.33___£18,360.10

62____£217.66___£201.96___£18,142.44

63____£220.05___£199.57___£17,922.39

64____£222.47___£197.15___£17,699.91

65____£224.92___£194.70___£17,474.99

66____£227.40___£192.22___£17,247.60

67____£229.90___£189.72___£17,017.70

68____£232.43___£187.19___£16,785.28

69____£234.98___£184.64___£16,550.29

70____£237.57___£182.05___£16,312.73

71____£240.18___£179.44___£16,072.55

72____£242.82___£176.80___£15,829.72

73____£245.49___£174.13___£15,584.23

74____£248.19___£171.43___£15,336.04

75____£250.92___£168.70___£15,085.11

76____£253.68___£165.94___£14,831.43

77____£256.47___£163.15___£14,574.96

78____£259.30___£160.32___£14,315.66

79____£262.15___£157.47___£14,053.51

80____£265.03___£154.59___£13,788.48

81____£267.95___£151.67___£13,520.54

82____£270.89___£148.73___£13,249.64

83____£273.87___£145.75___£12,975.77

84____£276.89___£142.73___£12,698.88

85____£279.93___£139.69___£12,418.95

86____£283.01___£136.61___£12,135.94

87____£286.12___£133.50___£11,849.81

88____£289.27___£130.35___£11,560.54

89____£292.45___£127.17___£11,268.09

90____£295.67___£123.95___£10,972.41

91____£298.92___£120.70___£10,673.49

92____£302.21___£117.41___£10,371.28

93____£305.54___£114.08___£10,065.74

94____£308.90___£110.72____£9,756.85

95____£312.29___£107.33____£9,444.55

96____£315.73___£103.89____£9,128.82

97____£319.20___£100.42____£8,809.62

98____£322.71____£96.91____£8,486.91

99____£326.26____£93.36____£8,160.64

100___£329.85____£89.77____£7,830.79

101___£333.48____£86.14____£7,497.31

102___£337.15____£82.47____£7,160.16

103___£340.86____£78.76____£6,819.30

104___£344.61____£75.01____£6,474.69

105___£348.40____£71.22____£6,126.29

106___£352.23____£67.39____£5,774.06

107___£356.11____£63.51____£5,417.96

108___£360.02____£59.60____£5,057.93

109___£363.98____£55.64____£4,693.95

110___£367.99____£51.63____£4,325.97

111___£372.03____£47.59____£3,953.93

112___£376.13____£43.49____£3,577.80

113___£380.26____£39.36____£3,197.54

114___£384.45____£35.17____£2,813.09

115___£388.68____£30.94____£2,424.42

116___£392.95____£26.67____£2,031.47

117___£397.27____£22.35____£1,634.19

118___£401.64____£17.98____£1,232.55

119___£406.06____£13.56______£826.49

120___£410.53_____£9.09______£415.96

121___£415.04_____£4.58________£0.91

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Here is the response that welcome supplied the FOS, This explains in black and white what Ive already told you. at the end of the day its down to you which route you take your case. I would however advise you to look at the letter I recieved this is the facts on how welcome work agreements out also make you fully understand what myself and Steven are telling you. I think failing this an Accountant will be able to explain how you agreement is worked out.

I will again say how frustrated I was when I recieved this letter because I honestly believe it isnt clear enough for a lay person to understand and it has took me a while to grasp. I wish you the best of luck with your case.

 

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab266/rottweilermick/Final%20Responses/Interestcalculations.jpg


As always please check and double check what myself and other Caggers inform.

 

If you like my Post please dont be shy give my Scales a little tickle :-)

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Hybrid, Spot on !


As always please check and double check what myself and other Caggers inform.

 

If you like my Post please dont be shy give my Scales a little tickle :-)

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£27,995.00

£419.62 (MONTHLY PAYMENT - INCORRECT, yes I know its only 15 pence per month, but STILL INCORRECT)

13.20%

£22,779.02 (INTEREST CHARGE - this is incorrect on my loan agreement - stated as £22770.87, yes I know its only £9.09 but STILL INCORRECT)

£50,774.02 (Total Amount Payable - this is NOT SHOWN ON MY LOAN AGREEMENT.)

Amortisation Table

Pmt #_Principal_Interest__Balance

1_____£111.68___£307.94___£27,883.33

2_____£112.90___£306.72___£27,770.42

3_____£114.15___£305.47___£27,656.28

4_____£115.40___£304.22___£27,540.88

5_____£116.67___£302.95___£27,424.20

6_____£117.95___£301.67___£27,306.25

7_____£119.25___£300.37___£27,187.00

8_____£120.56___£299.06___£27,066.44

9_____£121.89___£297.73___£26,944.55

10____£123.23___£296.39___£26,821.32

11____£124.59___£295.03___£26,696.73

12____£125.96___£293.66___£26,570.78

13____£127.34___£292.28___£26,443.43

14____£128.74___£290.88___£26,314.69

15____£130.16___£289.46___£26,184.53

16____£131.59___£288.03___£26,052.94

17____£133.04___£286.58___£25,919.91

18____£134.50___£285.12___£25,785.41

19____£135.98___£283.64___£25,649.42

20____£137.48___£282.14___£25,511.95

21____£138.99___£280.63___£25,372.96

22____£140.52___£279.10___£25,232.44

23____£142.06___£277.56___£25,090.38

24____£143.63___£275.99___£24,946.75

25____£145.21___£274.41___£24,801.55

26____£146.80___£272.82___£24,654.74

27____£148.42___£271.20___£24,506.33

28____£150.05___£269.57___£24,356.28

29____£151.70___£267.92___£24,204.58

30____£153.37___£266.25___£24,051.21

31____£155.06___£264.56___£23,896.15

32____£156.76___£262.86___£23,739.39

33____£158.49___£261.13___£23,580.90

34____£160.23___£259.39___£23,420.67

35____£161.99___£257.63___£23,258.68

36____£163.77___£255.85___£23,094.90

37____£165.58___£254.04___£22,929.33

38____£167.40___£252.22___£22,761.93

39____£169.24___£250.38___£22,592.69

40____£171.10___£248.52___£22,421.59

41____£172.98___£246.64___£22,248.61

42____£174.89___£244.73___£22,073.72

43____£176.81___£242.81___£21,896.91

44____£178.75___£240.87___£21,718.16

45____£180.72___£238.90___£21,537.44

46____£182.71___£236.91___£21,354.73

47____£184.72___£234.90___£21,170.01

48____£186.75___£232.87___£20,983.26

49____£188.80___£230.82___£20,794.46

50____£190.88___£228.74___£20,603.58

51____£192.98___£226.64___£20,410.60

52____£195.10___£224.52___£20,215.49

53____£197.25___£222.37___£20,018.24

54____£199.42___£220.20___£19,818.83

55____£201.61___£218.01___£19,617.21

56____£203.83___£215.79___£19,413.38

57____£206.07___£213.55___£19,207.31

58____£208.34___£211.28___£18,998.97

59____£210.63___£208.99___£18,788.34

60____£212.95___£206.67___£18,575.39

61____£215.29___£204.33___£18,360.10

62____£217.66___£201.96___£18,142.44

63____£220.05___£199.57___£17,922.39

64____£222.47___£197.15___£17,699.91

65____£224.92___£194.70___£17,474.99

66____£227.40___£192.22___£17,247.60

67____£229.90___£189.72___£17,017.70

68____£232.43___£187.19___£16,785.28

69____£234.98___£184.64___£16,550.29

70____£237.57___£182.05___£16,312.73

71____£240.18___£179.44___£16,072.55

72____£242.82___£176.80___£15,829.72

73____£245.49___£174.13___£15,584.23

74____£248.19___£171.43___£15,336.04

75____£250.92___£168.70___£15,085.11

76____£253.68___£165.94___£14,831.43

77____£256.47___£163.15___£14,574.96

78____£259.30___£160.32___£14,315.66

79____£262.15___£157.47___£14,053.51

80____£265.03___£154.59___£13,788.48

81____£267.95___£151.67___£13,520.54

82____£270.89___£148.73___£13,249.64

83____£273.87___£145.75___£12,975.77

84____£276.89___£142.73___£12,698.88

85____£279.93___£139.69___£12,418.95

86____£283.01___£136.61___£12,135.94

87____£286.12___£133.50___£11,849.81

88____£289.27___£130.35___£11,560.54

89____£292.45___£127.17___£11,268.09

90____£295.67___£123.95___£10,972.41

91____£298.92___£120.70___£10,673.49

92____£302.21___£117.41___£10,371.28

93____£305.54___£114.08___£10,065.74

94____£308.90___£110.72____£9,756.85

95____£312.29___£107.33____£9,444.55

96____£315.73___£103.89____£9,128.82

97____£319.20___£100.42____£8,809.62

98____£322.71____£96.91____£8,486.91

99____£326.26____£93.36____£8,160.64

100___£329.85____£89.77____£7,830.79

101___£333.48____£86.14____£7,497.31

102___£337.15____£82.47____£7,160.16

103___£340.86____£78.76____£6,819.30

104___£344.61____£75.01____£6,474.69

105___£348.40____£71.22____£6,126.29

106___£352.23____£67.39____£5,774.06

107___£356.11____£63.51____£5,417.96

108___£360.02____£59.60____£5,057.93

109___£363.98____£55.64____£4,693.95

110___£367.99____£51.63____£4,325.97

111___£372.03____£47.59____£3,953.93

112___£376.13____£43.49____£3,577.80

113___£380.26____£39.36____£3,197.54

114___£384.45____£35.17____£2,813.09

115___£388.68____£30.94____£2,424.42

116___£392.95____£26.67____£2,031.47

117___£397.27____£22.35____£1,634.19

118___£401.64____£17.98____£1,232.55

119___£406.06____£13.56______£826.49

120___£410.53_____£9.09______£415.96

121___£415.04_____£4.58________£0.91 STILL UNPAID AFTER 121 MONTHS!!!!!

 

Therefore this must be AUTOMATICALLY unenforceable because there is a breach of the prescribed terms.

 

1) monthly repayment

2) cannot pay the full amount over the 121 months as stated on the agreement.

3) TAP not shown on the agreement.

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I am sorry to be a pain!!!!

 

APR ON MY LOAN SHOWS 17.30% APR:

 

Annual interest of 17.3% means a monthly interest rate of 1.34%

 

RATE OF INTEREST PER ANNUM SHOWS 14%

 

Underneath the rate of interest per annum, it says:

 

"interest will be calculated at the rate of interest (shown as 14%), on the daily balance outstanding of the total amount of credit (shown as £25000), and the acceptance fee of £235. It will be paid as part of your monthly payments". - WHAT ABOUT THE MIF, U CANNOT INCLUDE THIS I IN THE LOAN CALCULATIONS BECAUSE IT DOESNT STATE SO, therefore the calcs have to exclude the mortgage indemnity fee????

 

SURELY, THIS DOES NOT WORK OUT, HOW IS THE MORTGAGE INDEMNITY FEE OF £2750 PAID OFF WITHIN 121 MONTHS???????

 

AIR OR APR OR NOT!!

;)

SEE ABOVE?

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Hybrid

 

Whats been charged on a monthly not matching what it should is also my problem, if you work it out let me know.


As always please check and double check what myself and other Caggers inform.

 

If you like my Post please dont be shy give my Scales a little tickle :-)

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Emanevs, if you notice Hybrid has started with the wrong amount which is why its slightly out.


As always please check and double check what myself and other Caggers inform.

 

If you like my Post please dont be shy give my Scales a little tickle :-)

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Here is the response that welcome supplied the FOS, This explains in black and white what Ive already told you. at the end of the day its down to you which route you take your case. I would however advise you to look at the letter I recieved this is the facts on how welcome work agreements out also make you fully understand what myself and Steven are telling you. I think failing this an Accountant will be able to explain how you agreement is worked out.

I will again say how frustrated I was when I recieved this letter because I honestly believe it isnt clear enough for a lay person to understand and it has took me a while to grasp. I wish you the best of luck with your case.

 

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab266/rottweilermick/Final%20Responses/Interestcalculations.jpg

 

Hi Bebo,

 

Please can you upload your agreement as well?

 

many thanks

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