Ebay problems

[lochnettie80]

hi all,

 

Recently purchased a set of wheels from ebay,the wheels were described as being landrover fitment and 8x16in in size, upon getting wheels to home address i discover that they arn't 16in they are 15in and they are not a landrover fittment.

 

the only reason i bought these wheel is that a colleauge was working in the area and he picked them up and brought them to me on his way back home, the seller lives 340 round trip from where i do.

 

After contacting the seller by telephone and asked for a refund for the misdescribed item and to cover the postage/courier costs before the items are returned to which he replied no he wants the wheels back before any refund would be given.which i thought was unreasonable as i had paid him for wheels immediatly after auction had ended.i said that i would let ebay deal with it then he said fine told me to f*****f and put the phone down

 

i then contacted ebay via the coustomer service helpline who informed me that because the wheels were collected i should have checked that they were the right fitment when collected. i tried to explain that it wasn't me that collected them it was a colleague who didn't have a land rover with him so how was he suppoesed to check.

 

asked ebay about the distance selling regs and they said that it doesnt apply as the item was collected not posted

 

even though the item was colleceted by a third party the keep asking for a tracking number as it was a colleague that collected them there isnt a tracking number so they say there is nothing they can do

 

at he moment i am £75 out of pocket with a misdescribed set of wheels and it is gonna cost £40-£50 to send them back

 

my only concern now is that because the seller lost his temper i send them back and he still doesn't refund me the money i piad.

 

what i want to know is can i ask him to pay courier fees as he mis described item and can i ask that he pays me before i send them back.

[nat]

Could yopu not relist them on ebay to try and get your money back that way?

[hightail]

How did you pay for them? You say you paid as soon as the auction was ended, does this mean you used Paypal?

[lochnettie80]

yes used credit card via paypal

[the_freedom_trail]

yes used credit card via paypal

 

Simple, open a claim on PayPal - they nearly always side with the buyer no matter what - you're guaranteed to get your money back, maybe not straight away, but certainly in about 4 - 6 weeks.

 

Email the seller, tell him that you are happy for him to collect his property but after 2 weeks you will have to charge a daily storage fee for looking after the wheels and that after a month they will be sold to recover your costs. This will safeguard you against being accused of [causing problems] him or anything like that.

 

In the unlikely even that PayPal wont accept your claim have your card company perform a charge back.

 

Regards,

 

TFT

[buzby]

You may be successful for the a reclaim, but but you are both in error. Him for the misdescription (so a not as described complaint is valid), but also your collection. It doesn't matter if the person collecting was only there to move the item- this was the completion of the sale, and a very risky situation if the goods were not as described.

 

Because the seller cannot prove you received the goods (with a signature on delivery) very often you will be lucky and have the cost refunded, but then there was contributory negligence. You'll have 4 wheels that are not yours to retain, and the seller shouldn't be expected to pay the full cost of the return. I think 50/50 would be reasonable as there were errors on both sides.

[the_freedom_trail]

You'll have 4 wheels that are not yours to retain, and the seller shouldn't be expected to pay the full cost of the return. I think 50/50 would be reasonable as there were errors on both sides.

 

How can you say this? The seller deliberately misrepresented the item he was selling whereas the seller acted in good faith by arranging for the collection of the item. The seller's dishonesty resulted in this situation so why should he not have to swallow the cost for his error?

 

TFT

[hightail]

The buyer bears the cost of the return because that's how Paypal works and must use a method which gives online tracking. It's tough but that's how the system works.

 

There may be a way round this but it depends how far it's already gone with ebay customer services. Have you already raised a claim through ebay for the wheels being SNAD (significantly not as described)?

[buzby]

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

What benefit is it to the seller to make a mistake? He want to sell wheels - saying they are one size when they are actually another would be a pointless exercise. So it wasn't a 'misdescription' in the accepted sense - 16 and 15 are factual dimensions. If he promised 16 and it was 15" that is an error - possibly even a typo, but what really intrigues me is 'landrover fitment'. Now, what does this mean? Is he asserting it is a genuine LR part? Or simply used on a LR? It would be up to the purchaser to ascertain which.

 

If he operates as a business, you have protection under DSR, but not otherwise. YOu have no proof of dishonesty, and I have no doubt you accused him of this he would refuse to deal with you, as would I in a similar situation.

 

As to 'swallowing the cost' of his error - you conveniently forget it was your agent who completed the sale, paid the money and completed the transaction. If they were not right, he should have called you for advice. Blindly completing the sale because you weren't there to oversee it works against you, especially if the seller is private - the deal has been completed, and in the absence of you being able to use them, you can just as easily sell them on (correctly described, of course) and the laugh is, you probably will make more money from them.

[hightail]

Blindly completing the sale because you weren't there to oversee it

 

If the buyer had arranged a professional courier to act as their agent the result would have been the same and nobody would be blaming the buyer. All the agent is doing is picking up what they're given. This discussion wouldn't be happening if the seller had described the goods accurately. Mistake or otherwise, it isn't the buyers fault.

[lochnettie80]

when i phoned the seller to tell him that the wheels were the wrong fitment and did not fit a land rover he said he had seen a picture of same wheels on other landrovers and assumed they were landrover wheels as it is they are for a suzuki, they also tell you on the inside of the wheel that they are 15in not 16in . when i contacted the seller i told him they could be back with him on monday morning for free because colleague was going to be traveling that way early monday, all i asked was that he transfer the money via paypal first for the cost of what i paid him, he refused.

[hightail]

Have you started any formal dispute through ebay or Paypal?

[andydd]

I agree with Busby, both sides appear to have made errors. The seller describing them as landrover fitment was clearly a simple mistake, he wasnt doing it to maximise profits or trick anyone into buying them.

 

Secondly using paypal for payment and then collecting the item is foolish as there is no proof of delivery, I speak from experience after being involved in a [problem] to deprive me of a touch screen puter, paypal are still chasing me for the amount many years later.

 

Personally I'd just resell the items on ebay, it solves the problems, Ive recently bought various bike bits and some of them dont fit so Ive simply resold them, making a profit in some cases

 

Andy

[hightail]

Secondly using paypal for payment and then collecting the item is foolish as there is no proof of delivery

 

Foolish for whom? It's not the buyer who needs proof of delivery.

[gadgetgirl79]

when i phoned the seller to tell him that the wheels were the wrong fitment and did not fit a land rover he said he had seen a picture of same wheels on other landrovers and assumed they were landrover wheels as it is they are for a suzuki, they also tell you on the inside of the wheel that they are 15in not 16in . when i contacted the seller i told him they could be back with him on monday morning for free because colleague was going to be traveling that way early monday, all i asked was that he transfer the money via paypal first for the cost of what i paid him, he refused.

 

He refused, because he doesn't have to.

 

According to Ebay/paypal rules, you will get your refund (initial cost and postage) when they get their item back, so it's up to YOU to return the item first.

 

Unfortunately for you, if your friend drops it off, then you'll have no proof of delivery, as paypal requires a tracking number.

 

You are both in the wrong; him for the description, and you for not checking item when picking it up. (Hence it's never a good idea to send a friend...)

 

You could always be exceptionally cheeky and open an "item not received" dispute, because the seller won't be able to prove delivery, and you'll get your refund. You could then get your friend to return them.

 

The other alternative is getting your friend to return them, and him giving your friend the refund in CASH.

 

Tricky situation... (and I'm surprised he accepted paypal with a collection).

[hightail]

Tricky situation... (and I'm surprised he accepted paypal with a collection).

 

So am I but it has at least resulted in something of a lever for negotiation. I can only imagine it is an inexperienced seller. The buyer can return them by the cheapest possible means and then claim Item Not Received quite honestly. No tracking needed so long as there hasn't already been a dispute opened. If there has then the cost of return could be prohibitive as it will all have to be done by the book.

[Kraken1]

Agree, the DSRs will only apply where the seller was acting in a professional capacity. Interestingly, a recent EU case on the Distance Selling Directive held that a seller cannot deduct a delivery charge from a refund, but can charge for collection. Not really relevant I suppose, but interesting nonetheless.

 

To the problem:

 

Buz (et al), do you think that sections 32 and 34 are relevant here? Do these not help the buyer in this type of situation?

 

 

For reference:

 

32 Delivery to carrier

(1)Where, in pursuance of a contract of sale, the seller is authorised or required to send the goods to the buyer, delivery of the goods to a carrier (whether named by the buyer or not) for the purpose of transmission to the buyer is prima facie deemed to be a delivery of the goods to the buyer.

 

(2)Unless otherwise authorised by the buyer, the seller must make such contract with the carrier on behalf of the buyer as may be reasonable having regard to the nature of the goods and the other circumstances of the case; and if the seller omits to do so, and the goods are lost or damaged in course of transit, the buyer may decline to treat the delivery to the carrier as a delivery to himself or may hold the seller responsible in damages.

 

(3)Unless otherwise agreed, where goods are sent by the seller to the buyer by a route involving sea transit, under circumstances in which it is usual to insure, the seller must give such notice to the buyer as may enable him to insure them during their sea transit; and if the seller fails to do so, the goods are at his risk during such sea transit.

 

(4)In a case where the buyer deals as consumer or, in Scotland, where there is a consumer contract in which the buyer is a consumer, subsections (1) to (3) above must be ignored, but if in pursuance of a contract of sale the seller is authorised or required to send the goods to the buyer, delivery of the goods to the carrier is not delivery of the goods to the buyer.

 

 

34 Buyer’s right of examining the goods

Unless otherwise agreed, when the seller tenders delivery of goods to the buyer, he is bound on request to afford the buyer a reasonable opportunity of examining the goods for the purpose of ascertaining whether they are in conformity with the contract and, in the case of a contract for sale by sample, of comparing the bulk with the sample.

[lochnettie80]

He refused, because he doesn't have to.

 

According to Ebay/paypal rules, you will get your refund (initial cost and postage) when they get their item back, so it's up to YOU to return the item first.

 

That may well be the case. I do think that a certain element of trust, and honesty is required though. I trusted him initially to hold the wheels, after immeadiate payment, untill they could be collected. So why cant he trust me to return the wheels once I have received a refund?. I didnt think it was an overly un-reasonable request. Certainly not to the extent of being sworn at and then hung up on!.

 

You are both in the wrong; him for the description, and you for not checking item when picking it up. (Hence it's never a good idea to send a friend...)

 

Even if I had collected them in person, it would probably have been in a work vehicle, which would still mean I had no physical means of checking the fitment of the wheel until I arrived home.

 

The other alternative is getting your friend to return them, and him giving your friend the refund in CASH

 

He did suggest that in the final telephone conversation. However, I declined. Not only because I wouldnt see my work colleague for afew weeks after they had been returned, but also I felt like there could be repercusions as a result of dishonesty as his tone and attitude were much different to previous conversations.

Which leads to my request of a refund before releasing the wheels. I feel that I have been reasonable by offering the wheels back immeadiatly to his home address and at no additional cost to either of us.

[buzby]

The difficulty with those sections Kraken is we'd have to establish that he was a 'business', and trading on eBay. This is very different from being a 'Business Seller' or eBay, as the difference he is in the rates eBay charge, not whether it is an actual business a defined by law.

 

Now to the impasse....

 

The buyer has no right or expectation of holding onto the goods before a refund is made. If there is a possibility that the seller will not refund, then it is an easy task to sue them for the money paid. There is no reason why a seller has to refund before the goods are returned, as trust cuts both ways. FOr all the seller knows, he may end up paying out the money he recieved and still not recieve his goods bacl.

 

As for collecting in pwerson and still not inspecting them, I think you need to evaluate how you purchase things. If you collect the goods and pay the cash, thje deal has been struck and concluded. As you picked them up at your expense, you would be expected to return them also (for a refund). If the seller made a mistake that resulted in the return being required, then he should pay something towards the return costs, but this still does not remove the responsibility of the purchased to ensure the purchased goods are what he needs.

 

You do not buy FROM eBay, you buy OFF eBay, and sellers come in many shapes and sizes.

[gadgetgirl79]

Which leads to my request of a refund before releasing the wheels. I feel that I have been reasonable by offering the wheels back immeadiatly to his home address and at no additional cost to either of us.

 

Which is not going to happen as it's against ebay rules, and therefore is NOT a reasonable request.

 

There was no initial trust element involved, as if they'd sold to someone else, they would have been given a strike for a non performing seller.

 

If you're not willing to return them and wait for a cash refund, then I guess you'd better sell them on.

 

It may seem unfair to you, but these are the ebay rules.

[hightail]

The buyer has no right or expectation of holding onto the goods before a refund is made

 

Agree completely. The buyer could return them any way they wish and they will be refunded, either because the seller does so or by opening a Paypal claim. As far as Ebay/Paypal are concerned the buyer has never received the goods so the issue of 'trackable means' doesn't exist any way round. The seller is the one at huge risk here and I suspect doesn't realise it. If they did they wouldn't have been so unreasonable when the buyer offered to return the wheels.

when i contacted the seller i told him they could be back with him on monday morning for free because colleague was going to be traveling that way early monday

The buyer doesn't understand the Paypal system either. They are covered every which way round whereas the seller would risk the loss of both the money and the wheels. There are [problematic] who scour ebay to purchase from sellers who don't obtain proof of delivery.

[Kraken1]

The difficulty with those sections Kraken is we'd have to establish that he was a 'business'

 

Why? Have I missed something? I don't believe that those sections make a distinction between the type of seller unlike others, for eg s14, which specifically states that stuff is sold 'in the course of a business'. Where there isn't this statement then surely the SoGA applies?

[lochnettie80]

ebay have now opened a case about this ,i personally think he advertised them as landrover wheels as you do pay more for them than suzuki ones, the man has now put on board that if i send them back he will refund me

 

then he phones me which i ignored as i would prefer for it to be dealt with within ebay.

 

munites later i get a text saying" i was well within my rights on sat even ebay says not to do refunds till got the goods back oh well your loss"

 

am i to take that he wont even let me send them back and it is gonna cost more to send them back than i piad him

[buzby]

I think there are some misconceptions here. There are genuine Land Rover spares (sometimes called OEM), aftermarket Land Rover spares, which are cheaper, and spares 'to fit' a Land Rover. This latter group is the cheapest of all. Advertising 'landrover' wheels can be any of these, but if the price is too good, the chances are they are not OEM. There is no issue of advertising them as being for a 'landrover' being incorrect or misleading - except perhaps for the lack of spacing and capitalisation.

 

Rejecting his call to rectify the problem closes a valuable line of communication and often works against you as you could just as easily end up at a brick wall.

 

Who is to know what he plans to do - you ignored his call! The issue of the cost of sending them back is irrelevant now - the sale should not have been completed as the goods were not what you required, taking them and then expecting the seller to pay for the return is unreasonable. As mentioned before, you have both made mistakes, and if you want your money back it appears he will refund you - but you need to get the items back to him by whatever means. If this costs more than you paid, then sell them on and recoup your purchase cost that way.

[lochnettie80]

ok , i see what you are saying busby maybe there are things that should have been done differently, how ever that still doesn't slove the fact that these are not landrover wheels as advertised and have never fit a landrover in their lives as the offset is wrong, therefore surely he was wrong for advertising them as landrover wheels when he openly admitted that he didn't know if they were after i told him i had tried to fit them to my landrover after getting them home, they also dont fit any other land rover as i am one of a group of us that own all different landrovers ranging from 90 to discovery 3 and i dont think i would be having this problem if he had posted them by courier