homelessness / section 21

[confused mum]

Hi

I have read nearly almost all the forum threads regards to section 21 and also looked on the shelter website and visited them also - they were great.

 

But I still have a few questions that need to answered so I can fully understand my position and route.

 

Brief overview of situation

 

Need to leave rented property as I can no longer afford it as it is too big for my purposes due to children leaving and losing their help towards the rent. LL knows of this as I found a new flat for my 16yr old (still at college) and myself with a housing association. LL would not give me a positive reference as in 2008 I fell into arrears due to Housing benefit stopping for 5months because I started work again and they took for ever to sort out figures. a very small payment was awarded in the end for those months! LL new what was going on and we made an arrangement to pay back the arrears that has been kept to. So still a small bit outstanding. Although he asked me 'how much do I still owe?'

 

Now I want to leave he wants to arrears to be paid up within a timescale that is impossible so I cannot agree to that arrangement and hence have asked him to either give me a positive reference or a notice to quit.

 

He visited me for the 2nd time in 3+ years recently (works abroad and do not have an agent - which has been very difficult due to repairs etc - another story) He actually had the nerve tell me infront of all my children that they should take out loans for me to pay off the arrears!!! He also rang me at work (boardering on harrassment) to continue this conversation. Hence I asked him to write to me by letter from then on.

 

Anyway he eventually served me a section 21 notice that shelter said was totally invalid and I had to ask for another one. He sent a further one but because the dates were wrong it is also invalid. Shelter told me to go to the council and declare myself homeless as my deposit will be swollowed up with the arrears and due to a braek up of marriage on early 2007 (husband dissappared) I had to declare myself bankrumpt, hence no good reference history. (housing ass - accepted my bankruptcy!) I did go to council and they are willing to help me but contacted him for a correct section 21 notice to be served on me.

 

He has again served one but I dont think this is valid either! He has written and stated both section 21 (1)(b) and section 21 (4)(b)! is this valid?

 

I took out the AST agreement in feb 2007 (before the new deposit law was enforced). A 12 month aggreement with a 6 month get out clause for both sides. In feb 2008 I was to sign a new one which involved a rent increase which I didnt sign as the address was my old address before living at the rented accomodation (LL owned). But i did pay the rent increase and have an email from LL to say it was agreed to. Due to this should my deposit be in a scheme??? No proof of this has ever been given to me. Does this also make the notice not valid?

 

What are my best options?

 

ps - my deposit will be swallowed up with the arrears.

ps - only am paying just over half the rent as agreed to do by council as LL was told I couldnt afford it by me and emails back this up

ps - no agent from initial agreement signed.

ps - no further AST agreement sent to me to sign (only the two mentioned above)

ps - I have had to sort out all repairs and take time off work for some major repairs as LL frequently abroad. Contacting is very difficult.

 

If anyone is bothered to read this and help me then thank you in advance. So sorry it is so long winded!

[tenants Super]

hi there a newbie here....

 

You mention originally that you were renting before the deposit scheme came out.....did you pay one?

[tenants Super]

As to the tenancy agreement normally they only run for six months and then they go into a periodic tenancy. Your landlord does not have to give you a new notice but he can make rent increases. Your local housing office should have a housing information book that will help you understand how the laws work.

[confused mum]

Thank you Super for replying

 

I paid £2200 as a deposit on the 9th Feb 2007.

New AST agreement agiven to me to start from the 9th Feb 2008 (the one which was agreed to by all parties but not actually signed due to errors of address - no amended one was given to sign) but LL says it legit!

 

He didnt give me a notice for rent increase but just added the new figure to the new AST agreement in feb 2008.

 

So should the LL have put the deposit in the scheme?

 

thanks again

[tenants Super]

Ok....that deposit sounds way steep if you do not mind me mentioning!

 

Deposits should be only be 1 or two months deposit....some agencies ask for a month deposit and £200 extra ...I do not know how they expect people to live?

Do you keep hold of bank statements?

 

How was this deposit made...cash?

[confused mum]

Hi

The house is a four bedroom house and rent per month is £1050! Paid cash

 

Have bank statements but my AST agrrements say the deposit was this amount aswell. (the extra £100 was for having 2 cats)

[confused mum]

oops

the second AST agreement was for £1080 per month

[tenants Super]

May I also suggest you having a look at the directgov website for further information on your rights.

 

Also contacting the citizen advice centre....or go online to their website too!

[tenants Super]

You can also have a look at the tenancy agreement website ....hope this helps!

[confused mum]

thanks Super

 

Have been to CAB and they told me to go to shelter which I have done! They were great but its taking time off work which is the problem, otherwise I would go every Friday to my local drop in centre.

 

looked on so many tenancy agreemnt websites is there a particular one that you suggest me looking at.

 

I will look at the directgov website though and see it that helps! thanks

 

Confused

[confused mum]

LL has again served one but I dont think this is valid either! He has written and stated both section 21 (1)(b) and section 21 (4)(b)! is this valid?

 

I took out the AST agreement in feb 2007 (before the new deposit law was enforced). A 12 month aggreement with a 6 month get out clause for both sides. In feb 2008 I was to sign a new one which involved a rent increase which I didnt sign as the address was my old address before living at the rented accomodation (LL owned). But i did pay the rent increase and have an email from LL to say it was agreed to. Due to this should my deposit be in a scheme??? No proof of this has ever been given to me. Does this also make the notice not valid?

 

These are the two questions I have. Can anyone help?

[confused mum]

Just an update - been on www.directgove.org.uk and doesn't actually tell me what I need to know about deposit schemes and renewal of AST agreements.

 

posted them a feedback on the website:

'It doesnt clarify how a renewed AST comes into the scheme (when original was before april 07) either verbally agreed and tenant abiding by new agreement and LL conforming that it is legit although not actually signed by tenant as there were errors on it.

 

Therefore if agreed by all parties verbally is this an acceptable renewed AST agreement and should it abide by deposit schemes?'

 

Worth a go!!

[tenants Super]

Yes your deposit should now be in a secured scheme. Otherwise he is breaking the law.

[confused mum]

Thank you - you are a star to confirm that!

 

So verbal is legal!!! thought so - I had read that somewhere on here before but just needed it to be confirmed in case I was dreaming!!

 

So I should now tell him to put my deposit into a scheme and then issue me with another section 21 notice! Or will the council not be bothered about the deposit scheme to start ball rolling to house me and my child?

 

Or should I leave it til he goes to court and I write it as my defence and scare him a bit! for what he has put me through, that sounds good! (eg 2 months without running water over xmas, because he couldnt be bothered to sort things out- leaving it all to me to do!)

 

Which brings me to the other question should I have received a section 21 notice stating both (1)(b) and (4)(a)?? both were listed but the notes are more attached to the AST not the periodic?

 

thanks again

confused!!

[NewSAHD]

So I should now tell him to put my deposit into a scheme and then issue me with another section 21 notice! Or will the council not be bothered about the deposit scheme to start ball rolling to house me and my child?

 

Sorry to chip in here - and only a quick reply as off to the local tip now! - but just a note to say that the general consensus on CAG appears to be to not tip the landlord off to their mistake in not protecting your deposit.

 

Briefly, the penalty can be 3x the deposit, so why tip the landlord off?

 

Also, as I recall it, the notices seeking possession that have been served on you are unenforceable, if the deposit is not protected. Happy to stand corrected on this though.

 

Counterpoint is that you may not be rehoused, until it's all been through the Courts, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

There are others here on CAG who understand the mechanics of tenancy deposit schemes far better than I - and they should hopefully be along soon to help out too.

[confused mum]

Thank you NewSAHD

 

Yeah I had read that about stringing it out and not tipping the LL about the deposit scheme! want to do this but I also have to house us and at the moment I cannot afford the full rent where I am! its getting its more arrears. But the question is - do I try and get 3 x deposit out of him and then all can be paid off and I have a deposit to go where I would want to go?? Problem is no-one has gone down this road yet and won!!

 

Its a risk which I have to decide.

 

A friend told me to use it to as a bargaining option and hopefully scare him to let me just go with a reference that I want and perhaps some of my deposit!

 

Its all so much to decide and nothing is concrete and for certain with the law as yet!

 

If anyone could decide for me Id be grateful!! hehe - head hurts

 

confused

[confused mum]

thinking again.......read the thread regard to claiming for this deposit not being held in a deposit scheme and looked at all the court forms that you would have to fill out but..........

 

when do i do this????

 

Now?

 

When it goes to court for possession and I use it as my defence aswell? (does that judge deal with it or is it a seperate hearing?)

 

After I have been evicted by bailiffs?

 

I have heard or read that the LL can just be given time to put the deposit into a scheme and then reissue the section 21 notice

 

So how do you catch the LL's out if the judges allow this?

[NewSAHD]

Sorry to go off at a slight tangent...

 

I was typing a reply for you, but should first like to ask (so as to put all this in context)

 

- What were the original arrears,

- what was the amount agreed to be repaid,

- and from when and

- what are the arrears now?

 

PM if you prefer, so that you are not giving away too much information on an open forum.

 

In addition, whatever you PM to me will only be used to help out, if I can, and I will not disclose the same to anyone else without your consent.

[Snorkerz]

Chasing for the 3x deposit 'penalty' is fraught with danger and there is a loophole so big that you could drive a double-decker through it.

 

First thing is - this is not a small claim case, so you could end up being liable for your landlords legal fees if you lose. That's a big risk.

 

Second - to avoid being forced to pay the 3x, all the LL has to do is protect the deposit in the DPS before the court case. Then he will have complied with the law and protected the deposit - no penalty. The only way to 'catch out' the landlord is if he is so vain &/or stupid that he thinks he is above the law (as some do!)

 

As you WANT to be evicted, I would not draw attention to the lack of deposit protection at all when dealing with the court or the council housing officer. If you tell the council - they will tell the court!

 

However, you can use it as a bargaining tool as you say - this letter may help: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/residential-commercial-lettings/232265-trouble-landlord-deposit.html#post2576374

[confused mum]

Thanks - but scarey!!! ........When would I send this letter to my LL?

 

You wouldnt know about my question re: stating both section 21(1)(b) & 21(4)(a)? is this ok for LL to do this? Valid?

 

cheers again

confused

[confused mum]

Plus if I am still in arrears should I still ask for this deposit back? Can I ask for this?

[confused mum]

Hi NewSAHD

 

Any advice is much welcome.

 

- What were the original arrears, (£5000 in early 2008 - due to housing benefit stopping to be reviewed as I started work again)

- what was the amount agreed to be repaid, (£100 per month and a couple of months I paid £500 extra)

- and from when and (from 2008 until now)

- what are the arrears now? (£1600)

[confused mum]

Hi

I believe that my LL took out a mortgage for the house I live in but never declared it was to be rented! I have lived in this property (new barratts house - I was the first to live here) in feb 2007!

 

I always get the mortgage statements and pile them up to send to her in bulk.

 

A friend has just made me aware that its not normal for the mortgage compant to send to the rented property address and not the LL home address?

 

Any one thoughts would be great! what can or should do?

[confused mum]

Hi

An update on what is happening and still unsure what to do about the possible deposit.

 

I am currently waiting for the final meeting with the council regard to being in the council list and whether I can be given max points for bidding. This meeting is on the 4th June and the sectoion 21 notice runs out on the 8th June. I know I have to wait for the bailiffs but the council was going to try and give me the points to bid as it look better on the reports for me not to be actually homeless!

 

The explanation:

 

First AST agreement was signed in Feb 07.

In this agreement it did say that rent increases will be reviewd and done annually.

 

A renewed Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement was sent to me in January 08 for a feb 08 start. This renewal also included a rent increase, which I struggled to pay as I had just started to work and all benefit stopped whilst the council took their time to review my case, (stopped for 5 months). After a while I tried to pay the new rent and added £100 towards the arrears that had accrued (agreed verbally) - which I now believe was my acceptance of the increase. But I didn't sign the new AST agreement as the agreement as it had errors on it, eg my address was an old one and not the address of where I had lived in the Landlords Property for 1 year. No ammendment was ever sent to sign.

 

My question is: Does my acceptance to the rent increase also mean that the AST was agreed? Or not?

 

I have a letter since form the Landlord stating:

"The increase in rent to £1080 p month in Feb 08 was agreed by all parties and subsequently yyou paid this amount thereafter. This confirms your acceptance of the new rent. Under English law if no new contract is signed the contract becomes a Statutory Period Tenancy. This means no new contract is required."

 

Any advice welcome - I just dont know what to do as my options would be more if I could have my deposit back. Should I tell the court on the defence papers? Or request the return of my deposit as already advised previously in this thread? Or just forget it all as my case isnt strong enough?

 

Thanks

[confused mum]

Using the letter format sent to me by Snorkerz. Thanks Snorkerz!!!!

Does everyone agree that this is my best option. Reworded letter slightly and advice would be good before sending.

 

Just to add Shelter want me to go down the road of suing x 3 amount but I just too scared to do this as - dont want to come out worse!

 

Anyway here it is:

 

Dear Mr XXXXXXXX

 

RE: 123 High Street, Anytown, AT1 2AA

 

On the 9th of February 2007 I paid you a tenancy deposit of £2200 in respect of the above property. Subsequently a new AST Agreement sent and agreed to by all parties in February 2008.

 

In your own words dated within your letter dated 19th March 2010: "The increase in rent to £1080 pr month in Feb 08 was agreed by all parties and subsequently you paid this amount thereafter. This confirms your acceptance of the new rent.”

This rent increase notice was within the new AST Agreement 2008.

 

The Housing Act 2004 introduced the concept of "Tenancy Deposit Protection" and obliges private landlords to protect/register all tenancy deposits with one of 3 approved schemes.

I have verified with all three schemes that the deposit you hold was NOT protected by any scheme. This is unlawful.

 

You must refund the deposit IN FULL within 14 days. If you fail to do so, I shall sue you for the balance due, PLUS the statutory penalty for non-protection of deposits, which is three times the value of the deposit. You will also have to start the process again and re-issue the Section 21 Notice, as you failed to inform me of the deposit scheme before serving Notice for repossession.

 

Yours sincerely