Train Fine

[RealName]

I travelled from Bramley station, where I am unable to purchase a ticket due to problems with the machines, which most of the staff are aware of. However, today I ran into a problem with a revenue protection officer at Basingstoke station. I eventually managed to get through to purchase a ticket but didn't have time to queue as my train was scheduled to leave in a few minutes (typically it was an hour late) and I purchased one from the machine instead. As I was tired and in a rush I wasn't thinking properly. The ticket also cost me an extra £1.25, so I didn't think about it not covering my travel from Bramley at the time. When I went through the barrier to catch the train the man from before chased me down asking to see my ticket. When he told me it didn't cover my travel from Bramley I tried to explain that I hadn't realised at the time and said I was willing to exchange it for the correct ticket. However, he said that this was unacceptable and that I would have to pay a £20 fine as well as the cost of what my ticket should have been. I protested against this explaining that I hadn't realised I had purchased the wrong ticket and that it had cost me extra anyway, but he wasn't interested.

 

As I ended up paying more for the ticket and also went to the front of the station with the intent of buying a ticket (I could have just got on the train to Clapham Junction, then hopped on the London Overground, possibly not meeting any guards and getting free travel), do I stand any chance of winning an appeal?

[sailor sam]

I'm not getting this, why didn't the ticket you bought at Basingstoke cover you from Bramley? Did you (or intend to buy) a ticket from Bramley to Clapham?

 

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[RealName]

I bought it from a machine, so the ticket is from Basingstoke and not Bramley. I bought a London All Day Travelcard from Basingstoke with the intention of buying one from Bramley.

[Old-CodJA]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your post it seems you boarded at Bramley without a ticket, arrived at Basingstoke and did not declare the journey from Bramley, but you went on to purchase a day travelcard for the rest of the day, having not paid your fare from Bramley?

 

The only bit that really confuses me is where you say that you didn't have time to queue, but also state that the train was an hour late?? If the train you caught was an hour late, it wasn't the one that you had intended to catch so why not get a ticket and then catch the train you'd set out for?

 

At Bramley, there is a staffed booking office for weekdays as well as self-service ticket machines.

 

That aside, the validity of the travelcard takes effect from the time of issue and therefore a fare is still owed for the journey without ticket that was not declared, hence the Penalty Fare. I don't think you are likely to win.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[RealName]

I wasn't aware that the train was an hour late until I got to the platform, after having purchased the ticket.

 

The guy is hardly ever at Bramley Station and the machines don't work correctly (they're cards only because the local chavs kept stealing the cash and the touch screen doesn't work in various places, one of which completely covers an area I need to press to purchase the ticket). Most of the staff at Basingstoke and the guards on the trains seem to be aware of this problem.

 

I did speak to a guard about it on the way home and he feels that I have a good case for contesting the fine. I also did a little bit of research and found that I should have been able to change the ticket, paying the difference, which in my case would have actually been a refund.

[RPI]

I'll be honest I think you have a good case for an appeal, tell me, did he write out the PF from Bramley to Basingstoke? if so then you can appeal on the grounds that there were no adequate ticket issuing facilities available at the time.

 

Let me say this though you were lucky that the RPI issued a Penalty fare, had he reported you for prosecution you may well have been prosecuted for a short offer! basicly the RPI has made an error!

[RealName]

I'll be honest I think you have a good case for an appeal, tell me, did he write out the PF from Bramley to Basingstoke? if so then you can appeal on the grounds that there were no adequate ticket issuing facilities available at the time.

 

Let me say this though you were lucky that the RPI issued a Penalty fare, had he reported you for prosecution you may well have been prosecuted for a short offer! basicly the RPI has made an error!

 

What's the difference between a penalty fair and prosecution? I don't have all the details about my fine as it only happened today and obviously I've yet to receive anything by post. I would assume it was a fine for the travel from Bramley to Basingstoke though as all he was banging on about for ten minutes (it took this long before he let me say more than three words without interrupting me) was how I hadn't paid for that part of the journey.

 

If it does turn out to be a prosecution and not a penalty fair, what action should I take then?

[Stigy]

What's the difference between a penalty fair and prosecution? I don't have all the details about my fine as it only happened today and obviously I've yet to receive anything by post. I would assume it was a fine for the travel from Bramley to Basingstoke though as all he was banging on about for ten minutes (it took this long before he let me say more than three words without interrupting me) was how I hadn't paid for that part of the journey.

 

If it does turn out to be a prosecution and not a penalty fair, what action should I take then?

If you were being reported for prosecution, you'd have been told that the facts were being reported. You were Penalty Fared, if what you said in your initial post was correct.

[Old-CodJA]

What's the difference between a penalty fair and prosecution? I don't have all the details about my fine as it only happened today and obviously I've yet to receive anything by post. I would assume it was a fine for the travel from Bramley to Basingstoke though as all he was banging on about for ten minutes (it took this long before he let me say more than three words without interrupting me) was how I hadn't paid for that part of the journey.

 

If it does turn out to be a prosecution and not a penalty fair, what action should I take then?

 

As Stigy said, your initial post refers to a £20 penalty fare.

 

If you were issued a penalty fare you would have had a numbered Penalty Fare Notice handed to you at the time with instructions of when and where you must appeal or make payment of £20.00 by printed on it.

 

If you were reported for fare evasion you would not have been given a Penalty Fare Notice.

[RealName]

I was neither told the details that were being reported or given a penalty notice. I was only told that when they decide to take action I would receive a letter in the post. Is this another piece of misconduct by the RPI? If I'm correct he should have allowed me to switch my ticket for the correct one as I offered to do so at the first opportunity after finding out I had the incorrect ticket? He also made a personal remark towards me (told me my breath stank), something which I didn't do to him and I would assume he had no right to do to me?

[Old-CodJA]

The RPI is not obliged to issue a Penalty Notice if he or she considers that a fare was avoided or at risk of being avoided

 

If you believe that the RPI is guilty of what you term 'misconduct' then you should put your allegations in writing for the company to investigate.

 

All stations are covered by CCTV and if you get your complaint in quickly they will be able to ask for any footage to be retrieved by the British Transport Police.

 

Unless you make a written complaint, nothing will happen in respect of any grievance you may have. You need to make the allegations that you have made here in writing to the TOC as soon as possible

[RealName]

Unfortunately as someone who's been assaulted by employees of National Rail on three occasions (guys with long hair aren't allowed on trains apparently!), I know how these things work. I attempted to report the first two incidents to the transport police but they told me they weren't interested. I also reported the second incident to the actual police, but was told that they couldn't do anything as National Rail is private property and only the British Transport Police can deal with such incidents.

 

Regarding the incident which took place yesterday I was also double-teamed by another guy in plain clothes, who made it quite clear to me that he would backup whatever the guy who insulted me said if I took any action. I'm assuming the CCTV only records images as well and not sound (at least it did when a police officer assaulted me on a train station. A case which I won).

 

Are there any other channels to go through which could deal with National Rail and the British Transport Police?

[SRPO]

Smoke..fire...etc

[Old-CodJA]

Unfortunately as someone who's been assaulted by employees of National Rail on three occasions (guys with long hair aren't allowed on trains apparently!), I know how these things work. I attempted to report the first two incidents to the transport police but they told me they weren't interested. I also reported the second incident to the actual police, but was told that they couldn't do anything as National Rail is private property and only the British Transport Police can deal with such incidents.

 

Regarding the incident which took place yesterday I was also double-teamed by another guy in plain clothes, who made it quite clear to me that he would backup whatever the guy who insulted me said if I took any action. I'm assuming the CCTV only records images as well and not sound (at least it did when a police officer assaulted me on a train station. A case which I won).

 

Are there any other channels to go through which could deal with National Rail and the British Transport Police?

 

If there is any real strength in your allegations you have nothing to fear from a proper investigation.

 

Given your claims made here, I suggest that you pursue a 'Complaints against the Police' procedure. Forms and information leaflets are available at the enquiry desk at every Police station. The BTP are not exempt.

 

So far as Rail Staff are concerned, there is a formal complaint process within all the train operating companies and you need to put your detailed submission in writing to the company's Customer Relations Dept and set a sensible date by which you demand a written reply.

 

Several people, including me, have pointed out in the past that there is no value at all in making unsubstantiated claims on a public forum because that can change nothing and it is obvious that the staff who are being maligned, who may or may not have been guilty, but clearly cannot reply and therefore only a one-sided view of any incident is given.

 

.

[RPI]

It also depends on what you call "assault", rail staff have the power to use reasonable force in order to detain a person who fails to comply with all 3 aspects of section 5(1) (i think its 5(1)) until such time as that person can be brought before some form of justice, the actual power of detention being 5(2).

 

Reasonable force may also be used to remove a person from the railway who has committed any byelaw offence.

[freemycatfish]

I hope I am posting this in the right place.

 

My statement (not yet submitted to anyone) tells the story and is reproduced below. Any advise would be great.

 

Dear sir or madam

I am writing to advise you of my intent to appeal against the penalty fare imposed on me at London Bridge station on the 7th April 2010. I should begin by telling you that I have no intention of paying any money whatsoever, regardless of the outcome of this appeal. My reasons for this position are clearly stated below. Should you decide to make this a criminal prosecution I will be very happy to appear in court and will endeavour to have a trial by a jury. You, of course, will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I intended to defraud your company and I will vigorously defend that accusation.

The circumstances that led to me travelling without a ticket are detailed as follows:

On the 7th April 2010 I went to Grove Park with the intention of meeting a friend at Charing Cross Station. Prior to going into the station to catch my train I called into a Barbers to have my hair cut. Unfortunately, though I was the only customer in the Barber shop, a female member of staff was engaged in applying dye to another female member of staff's hair. This procedure took longer than expected and by the time the hair dresser got around to finishing my hair cut, time was pushing on.

I left the shop and crossed the road to Grove Park station arriving in the lobby at 12:13pm The ticket office was closed but there was a ticket machine operating. However, the machine was serving two females who were dithering over which ticket to buy. The other machine was showing no lights and seemed to be off. As I waited for the women at the machine, a station announcement said that my train was pulling into the station. Had I waited any longer I would have missed my train and maybe my appointment. I reasoned that I could pay for the ticket either on the train if an inspector was available, or at London Bridge. I ran and managed to catch the train.

At London Bridge I walked down the ramp from the platform and went directly to the first two station employees I saw. I explained what happened and they sent me to a ticket office around the corner.

I approached the ticket office to explain and pay what I owed when I was asked to step aside and speak to a man in a very sharp pin striped suit who asked me why I was queuing to use the ticket office. I explained to him what I was doing and he told me that I was liable for a penalty fair of twenty pounds and asked me for identification. I showed him my Oyster card which contained both my name and photograph.

I then told him I would not pay him any money as I had not done anything wrong and fully intended to pay my fair. I explained that I had sought out members of railway staff as soon as I left the platform. That I had made no attempt to try and jump or tailgate the barriers and that even though a side entrance gate was wide open I had not tried to run away. I pointed out that I had joined the queue to pay the fair at the ticket office which obviously meant I fully intended not only to pay what I owed, but to buy another ticket in order to continue my journey to Charing Cross.

The man insisted I pay the fine and I explained to him that he has no authority to fine members of the public as he is not a justice of the peace. Statuary law does not give him the right to fine anyone and that under Common law I had committed no offence and had not intended to commit any offence. I told him that if he wanted me to pay this money his duty was to take me into a court of law and argue his case and let a jury decide if there was any guilt involved. I further stated that as my actions were clearly not those of someone refusing to pay or attempting to take any form of pecuniary advantage or commit fraud, that I doubted very much if a jury would convict.

The man, who later revealed by signature that his name is Young Ojuyenum but who showed me no other form of identification, told me that the system does not work like that and I had to pay. I told him that if the system does not work like that the system is wrong and that it was making him treat the innocent like the guilty and he was arbitrarily acting as judge and jury on members of the public and that this is unlawful.

I explained that as I had tried to meet my financial obligations to his company without any form of coercion and in an honest way, his actions of pulling me from a queue where I would have paid for the part of my journey not paid for and then bought a ticket to go on further, constituted demanding money with menace and trying to intimidate me into paying a statutory fine he was not lawfully able to impose. I described this action as a racket and told him I would be happy to take this matter to court.

He told me that it was my responsibility to get to the station on time. I then explained what had happened at the Barbers which had delayed me unexpectedly and he could clearly see the fresh haircut I was sporting and I noticed that he looked to check.

He then asked for my name and address and handed me his note book. He asked me to write my address in the notebook and this I was happy to do. I asked if he wanted my telephone number also but he declined. I then told him that in giving my real name and address I had further demonstrated my honesty to him and asked him to reconsider his actions. He refused. However, he told me that he "trusted" me to have given him the correct address and had acted in good faith towards me by not checking to see if it was genuine or not. I then asked him to please make that check as I had no intention of doing anything dishonest. He refused to do so.

Though irritated by this whole procedure I remained calm at all times as a police officer and other members of staff present nearby will be able to testify if film of this incident is available from the CCTV cameras. What happened at Grove Park will also be on camera and I would urge you to see the film if possible to verify my story.

I then told the man that I was outraged that I had been treated this way and also outraged that his company paid him to try and fleece honest members of the public of money in this way. He kept repeating that he was just doing his job. I explained that he should talk to his bosses about the nature of his job because it amounted to gangsterism.

I further pointed out that had I made any effort at all to evade paying the fair he would be within his rights to take some kind of action by having me detained and arrested. I asked him if he was placing me under arrest and he said no. I then told him that he had no legal right to detain me further and I was going to leave, buy my ticket and pay for the part of the journey I had already taken. He agreed to let me pay for that part of my journey already taken and asked a station employee to take the money and give me change from the £10 note I offered. This was duly done. He then filled out the enclosed form, asked me to sign it and told me to appeal his decision. I explained that I would do so and told him I did not blame him for doing his job but that his job stinks and he should consider a career change as it may land him in court on criminal charges brought by a member of the public. I also told him that I would not be paying this fine as I had broken none of the Common laws of this land and had not intended to break any law.

At no point was the man threatening except in so far as I have pointed out. He remained calm as did I and although our discussion was frank, it was also polite.

I paid for the part of the journey I had taken from Grove Park to London Bridge and then bought a ticket to cover me for the remainder of my journey to Charing Cross, on to Moorgate and then home to Grove Park again from the same ticket office I had orginally queued for.

I should add that any system which seeks to penalise the innocent with the guilty is neither just, fair or honest and I remain outraged that such a system as this can be operating in this country.

I also maintain that no employee of any company should have the right to act as judge and jury and demand money from people on the basis of a threat of further legal action if they do not pay, simply on the basis of what they -- without training or cause -- consider to be intent to defraud. We have police officers who are trained to arrest those they think are guilty of a crime and even they must have good reason to believe that a crime has taken place or might be about to take place. It is the job of the court system and judges or juries to determine guilt based upon solid evidence and not the job of railway employees who have been instructed to find everyone guilty regardless of circumstances in order to extract money from them. That is plainly unlawful, or so I shall argue in court if I must.

　

[Old-CodJA]

I very much doubt that you would be successful in your defence and it is worth remembering that 'trial by jury' is not an option should this matter proceed to Court

 

Both the Byelaw offence and 'Intent to avoid a fare' contrary Section 5 RRA (1889) are Summary only matters

 

The Penalty Fare for failing to pay a fare before boarding is a Statutory Penalty made lawful by the Penalty Fares (Railways) rules as defined by The Railways Act.

 

Passenger arriving late for a train or not wishing to queue are not valid reasons for boarding without a valid ticket. Your complaint about delay is against a slow hairdresser it would seem

 

There are clear signs indicating that entering the platforms is a controlled ticket area where you must be in possession of a valid ticket and services to London bridge are amongst the most frequent in the south-east on almost every route and between Grove Park and London Bridge at least one every 15 minutes

 

This is not a case of having to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you intended to avoid a fare unless you are charged with 'intent'

 

If the Byelaw offence is alleged this is a strict liability matter. It is only necessary for the rail company to show that you were there without a valid ticket and that facilities to buy one before travelling were available at the station where you boarded.

 

Good luck with your appeal, you may get a sympathetic hearing, but I would not be too confident.

 

I also think it is somewhat uncharitable to come onto a public forum and name a member of staff, who has no opportunity to defend their point of view by the same route whilst hiding behind an alias yourself.

 

Good luck

Edited April 9, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[RealName]

Well the guy that assaulted me the first two times grabbed me up out of my seat, punched me in the back and shoved me off of the train on both occasions, simply because he didn't like my physical appearance.

 

The third time I was jumped from behind and placed in a headlock. He claimed he had me mistaken for someone else, but as this man had seen me many times before, and always liked charging me a little extra money for my ticket when I was in a rush to catch a train, knowing I wouldn't argue, I somehow doubt that.

 

There's nothing I can do about these incidents now though as they were many years in the past. At least I know now what course of action I should take if it happens again, so thanks.

 

Regarding the incident in my initial post, I have yet to receive a letter about the incident. Does this mean that someone who deals with this actually has some common sense and I won't be fined?

[Old-CodJA]

It is possible that they have more important fish to fry, but equally, it depends how long ago the incident took place.

 

If it was pretty recent then it's worth remembering these offices are generally very busy and it can occasionally take up to six weeks or so before you hear anything.

 

If a prosecution is likely, the company have up to six months to put the allegation before a Court.

 

Nonetheless, it is possible that you may not hear anything

[outraged of London]

i have recently also been fined at London bridge in my eyes very harshly. I arrived at Tonbridge station to find the bariers open, the train waiting and a huge amount of people in the ticket queue. i will there admit that i boarded the train so a not to miss it and did not have a ticket, but did also know that at london Bridge Station there was a "fares to pay" box before you got through the arier for exactly that reason. When i got there i walked up to the ticket man where i said that i had lost my ticket on the train and wished to purchase another. (I did thi ecause i had been fined before for the same reason and thought that if i said that i would be allowed to buy a ticket) although saying that was wrong i wanted to urchase a valid ticket and did not want to be fined again.the man did not believe me and eventually i admitted that i hadnt lost it but knew i could get one here as that is the point of the fares to pay. He said that i would be fined £31.80 which is twice the proce of an adult fare. I asked what the point of the fares to pay box was for and simply reveived an answer of "not my problem" which does not even make sense. I am 15 and not an adult and so was extremely angry at having to pay twice the adults fare when i am only a child. I was made to pay £15.90 which i refused saying that i would pay a childs ticket not an adult in the end i paid £10 which is still more than a childs ticket which is between £5.50 and £7.45 depending on times of day. I still recieved a fine of £20.80 outstanding despite the fact i had now paid more than the single fare! This is ridiculous that i have been fined adult prices and also that i had in fact then paid the full ticket. What can i do about it?

[SRPO]

i have recently also been fined at London bridge in my eyes very harshly. I arrived at Tonbridge station to find the bariers open, the train waiting and a huge amount of people in the ticket queue. i will there admit that i boarded the train so a not to miss it and did not have a ticket, but did also know that at london Bridge Station there was a "fares to pay" box before you got through the arier for exactly that reason. When i got there i walked up to the ticket man where i said that i had lost my ticket on the train and wished to purchase another. (I did thi ecause i had been fined before for the same reason and thought that if i said that i would be allowed to buy a ticket) although saying that was wrong i wanted to urchase a valid ticket and did not want to be fined again.the man did not believe me and eventually i admitted that i hadnt lost it but knew i could get one here as that is the point of the fares to pay. He said that i would be fined £31.80 which is twice the proce of an adult fare. I asked what the point of the fares to pay box was for and simply reveived an answer of "not my problem" which does not even make sense. I am 15 and not an adult and so was extremely angry at having to pay twice the adults fare when i am only a child. I was made to pay £15.90 which i refused saying that i would pay a childs ticket not an adult in the end i paid £10 which is still more than a childs ticket which is between £5.50 and £7.45 depending on times of day. I still recieved a fine of £20.80 outstanding despite the fact i had now paid more than the single fare! This is ridiculous that i have been fined adult prices and also that i had in fact then paid the full ticket. What can i do about it?

 

How about learning that when you tell lies you usually end up in trouble, be thankful you are not an adult or you would have ended up in court with a fine 10x the penalty fare you were given.

I have no sympathy for you.

[outraged of London]

First of all if you are going to

be cynical and unhelpful then no one wants you to comment and thus go away. Secondly you cannot be given a 10x fine for that and would

not be taken to court over £20 clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Thirdly I am not disputing the fine itself as I can see why I got it weather unfair or not I al disputing the fine given. The fine said double appropriate single fare or £20 whichever highest. As a child the appropriate fair would be £7 or so and therefore my fine should be £20 as that is the highest. There can be no dispute of that.

[SRPO]

I shall do as you wish & go away, before I do please look at the national conditions of carriage, particulary in relation to discounted tickets.

[weather-cold]

First of all if you are going to

be cynical and unhelpful then no one wants you to comment and thus go away. Secondly you cannot be given a 10x fine for that and would

not be taken to court over £20 clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Thirdly I am not disputing the fine itself as I can see why I got it weather unfair or not I al disputing the fine given. The fine said double appropriate single fare or £20 whichever highest. As a child the appropriate fair would be £7 or so and therefore my fine should be £20 as that is the highest. There can be no dispute of that.

 

you were trying to avoid a fare for a long journey it seems...you best pay the fine or they will write a letter to your parents/guardian saying we caught 'billy nomate' on his own on the trains far away from home please tell him to straighten up.

[Old-CodJA]

I'm sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear and I do recognise that you are very yound, but the Inspector was actually entitled to apply the statutory penalty of twice the adult fare.

 

A child rate ticket is technically a reduced fare and is only available if you have purchased a ticket before travelling unless there were no facilities to pay.

 

You say that you were only untruthful in saying you had lost your ticket because you had been caught out before. Clearly you learned nothing from the earlier experience and if on the second occasion you did not tell the truth, which you have admitted was the case, you could hardly complain that you were asked to pay a penalty.

 

If you had told the truth in the first place and said there was a queue and you decided to get on the train and pay at London Bridge instead of making up a cock and bull story about having paid and lost your ticket, then you would have been much more likely to have got a sympathetic hearing.

 

I'm not saying that you would have been allowed to pay the child fare, but it was a strong possibility.