OneDrop vs London Borough of Southwark. Help please?

[OneDrop]

I received a PCN from LBS in March 2009. I made representations on two occassions and did not receive a Notice of Rejection. In fact I received a letter confirming the cancellation of the PCN in May 2009 but I cannot prove that anymore as I since discarded the letter. As I heard nothing else after that I forgot about it and assumed the matter closed. In January 2010 whilst visiting the hopsital my car was clamped on the street outside the hopsital where I was parked. My blue badge was on display at the time too. I was forced to pay £700 on the spot to Davies (bailiffs) for the release of my vehicle.

 

A few days later I filed a Statutory Out of Time Declaration and I am pleased to say that I have just been informed by the Traffic Enforcement Centre that my application has been accepted and that the case will revert back to the Notice to Owner stage with immediate effect.

 

Unfortunately, I have already paid the bailiffs as I needed my car released on the spot and couldn't afford to occur any further charges and the TEC weren't too helpful with what I can do about getting my money back, they didn't sound too confident either which is a joke because they gave the authority to the clamping of my vehicle in the first place right?

 

So can anyone help me with explaining how I go about getting my sums repaid now that I have the TEC decision?

 

Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated

 

Thanks

[lamma]

tomtubby - google the last three words in this sentence, [removed - dx].

[tomtubby]

I received a PCN from LBS in March 2009. I made representations on two occassions and did not receive a Notice of Rejection. In fact I received a letter confirming the cancellation of the PCN in May 2009 but I cannot prove that anymore as I since discarded the letter. As I heard nothing else after that I forgot about it and assumed the matter closed. In January 2010 whilst visiting the hopsital my car was clamped on the street outside the hopsital where I was parked. My blue badge was on display at the time too. I was forced to pay £700 on the spot to Davies (bailiffs) for the release of my vehicle.

 

A few days later I filed a Statutory Out of Time Declaration and I am pleased to say that I have just been informed by the Traffic Enforcement Centre that my application has been accepted and that the case will revert back to the Notice to Owner stage with immediate effect.

 

Unfortunately, I have already paid the bailiffs as I needed my car released on the spot and couldn't afford to occur any further charges and the TEC weren't too helpful with what I can do about getting my money back, they didn't sound too confident either which is a joke because they gave the authority to the clamping of my vehicle in the first place right?

 

So can anyone help me with explaining how I go about getting my sums repaid now that I have the TEC decision?

 

Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Firstly, I am pleased to hear that your application was as a success...WELL DONE!!

 

Sadly, very few people know know of the Traffic Enforcement Centre and that they can file an Out of Time Application. Like you, many people assume that they cant file such an application if they have already paid.

 

If fact...MOST applications are made AFTER paying a bailiff and we have many cases as well where applications have been made following the clamping, removal and even the SALE of a vehicle by a bailiff.

 

Just so that you know....approx 50,000 Out of Time Applications were submitted last year.

 

What has to happen now is this.

 

The Traffic Enforcement Centre will have to send a copy of the REVOKING ORDER to Southwark Council and you will find that they will then REFUND a cheque to you for the outstanding amount of just the PCN. They will then advice you that it is for Davies Enforcement to refund you the bailiff fees.

 

THIS INFORMATION IS WRONG !!!

 

The entire responsibility for repaying the fees lays with the LOCAL AUTHORITY.

 

The bailiff is acting as agent for Southwark.

 

Your Out of Time Application REVOKED the Warrant of Execution and the effect of this is that the prcocess rewinds back and anything that has happened under the warrant is considered by the courts to be NULL AND VOID.

 

It is important to be aware that the acceptance of an Out of Time Application is the acceptance that an ERROR was made by SOUTHWARK ( in your case that they had confirmed that your representation had been accepted) but that they nonetheless issued a warrant to Davies Enforcement .

 

Davies Enforcement therefore did not make an error...they were merely acting upon the instructions of Southwark. The local authority made an error in requesting a Warrant of Execution and the court have ruled accordingly.

 

Sadly, most councils will stamp their feet or throw their toys out of the pram and tell you that you must contact their agent. WRONG......

 

We have seen so many such cases where payment is not made UNTIL you send the council a template N1 Claim Form to the council.

 

 

PS: In the next couple of weeks, we are launching a new website specifically aimed at advising the public on all matters relating to the Traffic Enforcement Centre ........

[OneDrop]

Thank you tomtubby that information is of great help. Before I read your reply I had already typed out a letter addressed to the bailiffs demanding my money back and was preparing to send it recorded delivery on tuesday. I will now amend that and send it FAO LBS. I have heard of a N1 before vaguely nonetheless I will follow up with one of those if as expected, I get fobbed off by LBS. Im going away this summer so my money back at this time would be exteremely welcome

 

What I plan to do now is write to LBS and give them one opportunity to repay sums in full, if they don't then I will start legal proceedings. I haven't done anything like this before so I will give it a go and then come back and tell everyone here how I got on

 

Thanks again

[tomtubby]

Thank you tomtubby that information is of great help. Before I read your reply I had already typed out a letter addressed to the bailiffs demanding my money back and was preparing to send it recorded delivery on tuesday. I will now amend that and send it FAO LBS. I have heard of a N1 before vaguely nonetheless I will follow up with one of those if as expected, I get fobbed off by LBS. Im going away this summer so my money back at this time would be exteremely welcome

 

What I plan to do now is write to LBS and give them one opportunity to repay sums in full, if they don't then I will start legal proceedings. I haven't done anything like this before so I will give it a go and then come back and tell everyone here how I got on

 

Thanks again

 

 

Whatever you do..please ensure that I keep us all advised...

[Jamberson]

The entire responsibility for repaying the fees lays with the LOCAL AUTHORITY.

 

I know you have much expertise in this area, but I have never been under the impression that this is so. I worked in the system for a while and it was universally accepted that, provided the warrant was valid at the time, the fees were legitimately levied and so were non-refundable.

 

Can you say where it is written that the fees are refundable? Cheers.

[tomtubby]

I know you have much expertise in this area, but I have never been under the impression that this is so. I worked in the system for a while and it was universally accepted that, provided the warrant was valid at the time, the fees were legitimately levied and so were non-refundable.

 

Can you say where it is written that the fees are refundable? Cheers.

 

There is plenty of case law to support this.

 

If you can make sure to "bump" this question next week I will be able to provide more info once I am back at work and can access my legal cases.

[tomtubby]

There is plenty of case law to support this.

 

If you can make sure to "bump" this question next week I will be able to provide more info once I am back at work and can access my legal cases.

 

Another point that needs to be made is this:

 

When filing an Out of Time Application , you are completing two forms. One is a Statutory Declaration (TE9) and the other is a Witness Statement (TE7). The Witness Statement is to provide a reason why you are submitting the Statutory Declaration LATE..

 

Therefore what you are competing is a Statutory Declaration and a separate form to give a reason why the SD is late.

 

If accepted, it confirms that the local authority has made an error in failing to send a Notice to Owner (or Notice of Rejection) to the correct address.

 

Rule 75.8(b) of the Civil Procedure Rules specifically provided that where a court order is deemed to have been revoked following a statutory declaration that "any execution issued under the order will cease to have effect"

 

The bailiff would have been acting upon a Warrant of Execution that he believed has been correctly issued by his local authority client.

 

The bailiff company would have incurred fees in having one of it's bailiffs to enforce the warrant and if the court accept the Statutory Declaration, then it is accepting that the local authority made an error.

 

If a bailiff company were forced to repay bailiff fees, then they can of course reclaim them from the local authority......however most would not dream of doing so as they would not want to put their Contracts at stake !!

[lamma]

Exactly so. They deliberately let it fall between these two stools when responding to the person who is owed the money. Plenty of vigour applied on the collections side and none at all on the refund side.

[OneDrop]

Hi guys, just to keep you posted, this matter is still unresolved but get this. The Bailiff company have refunded their fees without a Court decision

 

Well you will remember the TEC cancelled the charge certificate and revoked the recovery order right? And so surely I would at least receive my PCN money back from the Enforcement Authority right? Wrong. They are STILL holding out. I'll tell you now why I capatalised the word still.

 

I wrote to Southwark a few weeks after receiving the TEC decision and no payment, I requested that sums be repaid to me in full, I sent the letter recorded delivery and it was delivered and signed for the next day (mid- April) I received no reply so I filed a claim with Northampton (it had to be Northampton didn't it ) and upon hearing this the Bailiffs contacted me and offered to refund me their fees albeit stating that it was a 'goodwill gesture' This all took place whilst the claim was still being processed and before any decision was made or defense submitted by Southwark. We agreed that they would do that, Southwark would refund me the PCN and I would withdraw my Claim. I was even prepared to write-off my Court fee if they did this quickly.

 

That was at the start of May, I received my money from the Bailiffs last week but still Southwark have not even contacted me. So now I am on the warpath. The Court fee's will stay as part of the debt and I am now allowed to enter judgement against Southwark by default since they have not provided a response and the deadline has passed.

 

So that's where i'm at, at the moment. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again

[OneDrop]

Question for all.

 

The Court have entered judgement against the Local Authority now and I now have the option of requesting a Warrant of Execution with the aim of collecting the money owed to me.

 

There is a fee charged by the Court for issuing a Warrant and the advice I have received thus far is basically that if the address I have given for the Local Authority is not housing any valuables likely to be able to pay the sums owed to me then the Warrant could fail and my money not recovered using this method of recovery.

 

So does anybody know if The Parking Shop has anything that can be ceased by bailiffs and sold at auction on my behalf? LBS will owe me approx £400 if I am granted a Warrant (Warrant fee included) which doesn't seem un-recoverable usually but I understand that the bailiffs can't take things used to run the business such as personal computers, telephones & workstations etc

 

I imagine that is all that would be housed there apart from the cash payments they receive from the public. Is this cash liable to be ceased on a Warrant? What do you think? Should I seek a Warrant now or should I seek an alternative solution? And if so any ideas on alternative solutions?

 

Since the TEC ruled in March this year I have heard or received nothing at all from the Local Authority so it is clear that they have no intention of paying up voluntarily and they want to see how far I will go so I am not after suggestions that will merely be asking them nicely to pay, they must pay me, it is my understanding that they were obliged to refund at least the PCN charge after the TEC decision but this has not happened.

 

Thanks guys

[lamma]

The town hall will have plenty of valuables. e.g, the Mayors' chain of office. I bet the have paintings and silverware for banquets etc. If they are seeing who will blink first then don't be the one to blink. the trick is not to a bailiff who gets work from the council. The amount isn't enough (yet) to use High court enforcement but bailiff fees will soon mount up. If you get nowhere serve an EX141 on their CFO - they are the judgement debtor after all. I expect them to pay at the last minute when they see you are going through with it, shame really as freezing their bank accounts could be fun..

[OneDrop]

The town hall will have plenty of valuables. e.g, the Mayors' chain of office. I bet the have paintings and silverware for banquets etc. If they are seeing who will blink first then don't be the one to blink. the trick is not to a bailiff who gets work from the council. The amount isn't enough (yet) to use High court enforcement but bailiff fees will soon mount up. If you get nowhere serve an EX141 on their CFO - they are the judgement debtor after all. I expect them to pay at the last minute when they see you are going through with it, shame really as freezing their bank accounts could be fun..

 

LOL, thanks for the info, esp on form EX141 which i have just taken a look at. Just out of interest were I to send one would I just print and send or does it need to be sent to the Court first? Most of that form could only be filled out by the defendant anyway.

 

As for bailiff action on a Warrant, as far as I am currently aware, I am unable to select the bailiff company myself, when I ask for a Warrant, if granted, the Court will pass it to the bailiffs at the Local Authority's County Court but I have no idea who that is. The case will remain at Northampton and I am told that I can expect to be kept informed by both the bailiffs and Northampton as to the progress of the Warrant.

 

So you think I should seek a Warrant and you think The Parking Shop will probably have lots of ceasable assests right? I guess I could even pop down there to take a look around myself as it is a walk-in centre the public can use to pay fines but I presume all the valuables will be in the back somewhere or in the cash register.

[lamma]

the judgement debtor is not the parking shop it is the council. why are you fixated on the parking shop ? what is a 'ceasable' asset ? you mean 'seizable' I take it. parking shop may have non - outsourced and rented stuff. but the town hall will have plenty. I think you can serve the warrant yourself but you may have to be accompanied by the bailiff. there may be more info if you google the last three words of this sentence, bailiff advice online. What communication have you made with the council and what have they replied. verbatim wording please. this maybe worth a read Got a Judgement?: How to Get Paid - Consumer Wiki

Edited June 4, 2010 by lamma

[OneDrop]

the judgement debtor is not the parking shop it is the council. why are you fixated on the parking shop ? what is a 'ceasable' asset ? you mean 'seizable' I take it. parking shop may have non - outsourced and rented stuff. but the town hall will have plenty. I think you can serve the warrant yourself but you may have to be accompanied by the bailiff. there may be more info if you google the last three words of this sentence, bailiff advice online. What communication have you made with the council and what have they replied. verbatim wording please. this maybe worth a read Got a Judgement?: How to Get Paid - Consumer Wiki

 

Oh I see! For some reason I got it into my head that bailiffs would only be allowed to seize goods from the address I gave for the defendant when filing the initial claim form but for the life of me I don't know why as even the Notice of Judgement entered has no address attached to it for the defendant.

 

With regards to my communication with the LA, I called The Parking Shop the day after my car was released by the bailiffs and basically stated that I sent two letters to them regarding the alleged parking contravention challenging the original PCN. The lady I was speaking to confirmed she had those letters infront of her and even read them back to me including the part where I said in my second letter "Please note my address has changed since our last exchange, the new and current address is at the header" And indeed at the header I had written my new address for further correspondence. I then told her that I received no further correspondence on the matter at my new address. I asked her for my money back and she told me I needed to email someone so I did the same day outlining the above and I received a letter a week later from the LA stating the following

 

"We have investigated this matter and found that the correct procedure was followed.....With respect to this case we have had no notification of change of address and this is only being sent to the address you have now directed. All other correspondence was sent correctly to the DVLA registered keeper and if you changed address it would have been appropriate to inform the DVLA.....If you are appealing bailiff interevention the council cannot enter into any further correspondence on this matter. You must deal with the Bailiff Company concerned....."

 

Then I filed a OOT and two weeks after the TEC accepted my declaration I sent another letter to the LA (recorded delivery 1st class) stating the following

 

".....With the Court deciding in my favour, I am writing to inform you that I would like sums repaid immediately... (copy of receipt enclosed).....I have been independently informed that this debt is the sole responsibility of LBS and not the bailiff company as implied in your previous letter.....Please do not attemot to waste my time by sending me any more correspondence asking meto contact your agent. If payment is made in full within the next 7 days, I will consider that an end to this matter. If payment is not received by then, recovery action will be my recourse and further charges may be added to the original amount"

 

This letter was delivered and signed for on 8th April 2010 but they have not contacted me since so I have received one letter from LBS since I had my car released in February 2010.

 

And thanks for the link too, I have had a read and will contact the Court to see if I can get an Order to Attend, that looks interesting, at the moment the only option I am being given by the Court to progress this claim is to seek a Warrant of Execution but I think I would now like to get an Order to Attend prior to that

[lamma]

Try a friendly chat with the TEC. play dumb and see what they come up with.

[OneDrop]

Hello again guys

 

Ok my warrant of execution was issued against LBS in August and passed to Lambeth County Court to enforce. Needless to say nothing has been done to enforce my warrant. I called them today to be told that the warrant had been sent back because 'there was something wrong with it' but conveniently they didn't have a note of what it was.

 

I called Northampton County Court (who issued the warrant) and they said they have not received anything back from Lambeth! Phoned Lambeth back and they reckon I can write a letter of complaint! That's getting sent off later this week but I am livid!!!! Not really suprised but livid.

 

So what should I do now after my letter of complaint? Northampton reckon it will be resent to Lambeth if i re-issue the warrant but what's the point of that eh? Im thinking an Order to Attend but then that form N316A requires a personal service of the Order so i'd have to locate the Director somehow and then pay to elicit information as to who that is etc etc. Unless someone here already knows all that info? That would be helpful.

 

Anyway what should I do now to take LBS deep into the trenches?

 

THIS IS WAR!!!!

[lamma]

did you contact tomtubby ?

[Surfer01]

Reference thsi thread, can a bailiff clamp a car displaying a blue badge for an pcn issue?

[green_and_mean]

Reference thsi thread, can a bailiff clamp a car displaying a blue badge for an pcn issue?

 

This has been discussed at length before and if I remember the answer was yes. The legislation relating to clamping covers clamping as a means in dealing with parking on private property or vehicles in contravention on the road, I do not beleive there is any that directly prohibits it as a park of a court action for debt collection.

[Surfer01]

I was unsure as surely a person driving a car with a Blue badge could be described as a vulnerable person. If my car was clamped I would be totally stuffed as I certainly would not have the money to pay a £200 fine never mind £600 and I would be totally stranded. There is no ways I would be able to get back home without assistance. I vaguely recall the other thread but I think it related to cars on private property or incorrectly park. As I say "vaguely".

Maybe I should start a new thread on this not that I have any pending or outstanding fines but it may be useful to others.

[green_and_mean]

I was unsure as surely a person driving a car with a Blue badge could be described as a vulnerable person.

 

Thats a bit of a genalisation I know of several blue badge holders who are far from vunerable one of which drives a new Bentley and could either pay the debt or get a cab home, whilst at the same time there are non BB holders who are on the minimum wage and would be stuffed without a car and live from hand to mouth.

[Surfer01]

Thats a bit of a genalisation I know of several blue badge holders who are far from vunerable one of which drives a new Bentley and could either pay the debt or get a cab home, whilst at the same time there are non BB holders who are on the minimum wage and would be stuffed without a car and live from hand to mouth.

 

I agree, but the bailiff will not know that when he clamsp the car with a blue badge. The assumption and according to the law is that a car with a BB has a vulnerable person on board.

[green_and_mean]

I agree, but the bailiff will not know that when he clamsp the car with a blue badge. The assumption and according to the law is that a car with a BB has a vulnerable person on board.

 

That is a big assumtion, it may not even be the BB holders car, I could run my old granny home after xmas use her BB in the P&D outside the old folks home whilst I make sure shes indoors ok and on return find I've been clamped for not paying the congestion charge, how is anyone vunerable? If the car is at the registered keepers address they are at home and no more vunerable than a disabled person who cannot afford a car.

[Surfer01]

On the other hand you could be popping inside the store to fetch and take your granny home and then you are left stranded and there is no ways you can get her and the wheelchair home in time for her supper at the care home.

I suppose that this can be argued forever and a day and there is no remedy in law as it is open to interpretation.