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Driving in to a bus lane


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I've received a penalty for driving in to a bus lane in Kingston Upon Thames. Upon investigation on Google Street view the signage is small (and at the time of street view taking it's picture, partly obscured by a hanging basket) and over the other side of the road, so potentially hidden by any buses that happened to be travelling along the road. Should signs not be placed on the corner before the junction?

 

See attached image;

 

Bus-Lane.jpg

 

Sign says no right turn except buses, taxis, bicycles, etc. and I turned right.

 

Do I have a case to argue?

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I'd need to look it up but I don't think that is lawful.

How do you know it's not a sign directed at traffic crossing left to right but that has turned through 90 degrees?

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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

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Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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As far as I know there has to be a 'no right turn sign' on both sides of the road just prior to the junction. The sign in the pic by itself cannot be compliant because if there was a large vehicle stationary in front of it then it would be obscured to traffic travelling along the road to which the sign is intended. You could also say it is being obscured by the basket and I would urge you to take a photo so you can include it in your appeal.

Edited by sailor sam

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The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

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There is no bus lane in Eden st the road has no access to vehicles other than buses and taxis but there is no bus lane of any shape form or description.

 

 

So how does that relate to my penalty notice? Clearly there is access because I came out of a car park in Lady Booth Road and the only option is to approach Eden st. at that junction. My only argument, as I see it, is that there was insufficient notification in the shape of markings/signage.

 

Kingston council advise me that it's a "contraflow bus lane"

Edited by Mushisushi
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Kingston council advise me that it's a "contraflow bus lane"

 

 

There are no bus lane signs or a solid white line down the centre of the road, you should have got done for ignoring the 'no right turn' or 'using a route restricted to certain types of vehicle' the bus lane ends opposite the junction with Ashdown road unless they have changed the road since I was last there. Without the solid white line or other signage there is nothing to stop you entering from the other end by Wilkinsons and doing a U turn since apart from the red road surface there is nothing to indicate the other direction is 'buses only'.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=eden+street+kingston&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=20.22616,67.456055&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Eden+St,+Kingston+Upon+Thames,+Surrey+KT1,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.408937,-0.303755&spn=0,359.967062&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.409009,-0.303614&panoid=rhFD8Er-eSBALDT0mcNcdg&cbp=12,43.91,,0,5

Edited by green_and_mean
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I agree.

 

The offensive IF ANY would be not complying with a no right turn sign. There is no bus lane at all, thus the penalty is incorrect. The restriction in Eden Road at the point where you turned right is only busses, taxi's and cycles allowed'. that is not teh same as a bus lane because a bus lane (as pointed out above) must be bordered by a solid white line to the offside.

 

As regards the no right turn sign, look at the oicture below and tell me where it says no right turn? As in my previous post, you cannot see it (ironically) because of a bus.

 

That is why they are required in the street BEFORE you turn so you have advanced warning of them. The ground should also be marked 'TURN LEFT'

 

I would appeal on the grounds that the alleged offence did not occur. The council will of course refuse the appeal, then go to adjudication where you will definitely win.

 

buslane1.jpg

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Here is one in Nottingham that is done correctly (albeit to the left rather than the right). Exactly the same, as in not a bus lane to the left but a restriction on vehicles just like in Kingston. The only real difference is this is a one way street we are in. But you will see the relevant signage and road markings.

 

buslane2.jpg

 

buslane3.jpg

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No, don't ask them for evidence.

 

If the fine is for 'driving in a bus lane' it is incorrect because it is not a bus lane.

 

If the fine is for contravening a no-right-turn sign, then you can appeal on the lack of signs and raod markings in lady Booth Street.

 

If the fine is for both of the above, then they have scored an own goal as those would be two separate offences.

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There's no point in making an argument on the above points unless I am sure of the details of the offence. Although I know I turned right here, I may have committed the offence on another section of Eden st.

 

I'm off to take pics this afternoon

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No, don't ask them for evidence.

 

If the fine is for 'driving in a bus lane' it is incorrect because it is not a bus lane.

 

If the fine is for contravening a no-right-turn sign, then you can appeal on the lack of signs and raod markings in lady Booth Street.

 

If the fine is for both of the above, then they have scored an own goal as those would be two separate offences.

 

Ask to see the video if you live local, if you live miles away you can get someone to view it for you. Appeal that no contravention took place as there is no 'bus lane' in Eden st due to lack of road markings, request details of any approval they have for a non prescribed 'bus lane'. Post up a copy or photo of the PCN as it may be incorrect.

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I’ve have a load of problems with RBK over the Eden Street Bus Lane Scheme. It really is a money making [problem] and totally unlawful. On one Saturday I videoed 19 drivers enter the Lane unawares during the period of about 80 mins. This is netting MY council up to £7000 - £10,000 a day on a busy Saturday, let alone the rest of the week. Even people at the Council have admitted that it is unlawful and the people running the collection do not have any control or contact with the engineers installing the signage system.

 

I even spoke to the Head of Highways and he told me that the team were unhelpful and even named names of people not worth trying to talk to. There is one person there who is openly anti-car and told me as such. What makes me fume is that most of them don’t live in the borough but actually walk past these signs twice a day on the way to their [problem] factory.

 

The section of Eden Street you mention is NOT a Bus lane, although it was proposed to make it a Contra Flow Bus Lane. When I asked the RBK about the lawfulness of that section, they actually replied in writing, they were not sure! As far as I can see, the section is a Bus Only Street as, although proposed to change in 2009, the northern section of Eden Street did not appear on the Notification under the Traffic Management Act. What is the code reference on the PCN? I think 34J only applies to a Bus Lane Contravention.

 

The whole area is a dog’s dinner and has been ‘adjusted’ piecemeal over the years. If it wasn’t for collection access for Eden Walk, the street really should be car free but a complex mess of part-regulation make it a motorists nightmare and a council honey pot.

 

There was a case in 2008 where a motorist (Mr Adnan Majeed) proved that the then current ‘powers’ used on Eden Street were unlawful because they were only granted on an experimental basis for 18 months. You might want to look into this.

 

I do not think you are going to get very far with RBK as they don’t have a clue and will reject any claim and fail to answer any questions, only to waste money going to appeal. I have spent hours of my time and paid a solicitor to advise me, all of which will have to be refunded by RBK.

 

I am afraid you will have to do all the work yourself and the only way they will confirm anything is by requesting under the Freedom of Information Act. There are several points of appeal and I would say regardless of the no right turn sign being obscured, there is not an advanced warning of a bus lane when approaching. If you were caught on camera, where is the statutory sign in Lady Booth Road warning you that camera enforcement is being used. The end of Bus Lane sign is missing, therefore rendering the Bus Lane not compliant. The Camera used (probably Number 8) is not approved for this purpose either. RBK has a CoP on their website regarding the use of cameras, although it is part of a standard document issued by all councils, it interestingly omits a few paragraphs in reference to what footage is required to fully support their enforcement actions. For the other section of Eden Street the TMO is invalid because they didn’t spell the name of the road correctly.

 

They do not have the powers to enforce a No right turn so don’t even bother with that.

 

Keep us all informed.

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I’ve have a load of problems with RBK over the Eden Street Bus Lane Scheme. It really is a money making [problem] and totally unlawful. On one Saturday I videoed 19 drivers enter the Lane unawares during the period of about 80 mins. It may not be a bus lane but it is not possible to enter the street without ignoring a no right turn road sign that prevents cars entering This is netting MY council up to £7000 - £10,000 a day on a busy Saturday, let alone the rest of the week. Even people at the Council have admitted that it is unlawful and the people running the collection do not have any control or contact with the engineers installing the signage system.

 

I even spoke to the Head of Highways and he told me that the team were unhelpful and even named names of people not worth trying to talk to. There is one person there who is openly anti-car and told me as such. What makes me fume is that most of them don’t live in the borough but actually walk past these signs twice a day on the way to their [problem] factory.

 

The section of Eden Street you mention is NOT a Bus lane, although it was proposed to make it a Contra Flow Bus Lane. When I asked the RBK about the lawfulness of that section, they actually replied in writing, they were not sure! As far as I can see, the section is a Bus Only Street as, although proposed to change in 2009, the northern section of Eden Street did not appear on the Notification under the Traffic Management Act. Bus lanes have nothing to do with the Traffic management act What is the code reference on the PCN? I think 34J only applies to a Bus Lane Contravention.

 

The whole area is a dog’s dinner and has been ‘adjusted’ piecemeal over the years. If it wasn’t for collection access for Eden Walk, the street really should be car free but a complex mess of part-regulation make it a motorists nightmare and a council honey pot.

 

There was a case in 2008 where a motorist (Mr Adnan Majeed) proved that the then current ‘powers’ used on Eden Street were unlawful because they were only granted on an experimental basis for 18 months. You might want to look into this.

 

I do not think you are going to get very far with RBK as they don’t have a clue and will reject any claim and fail to answer any questions, only to waste money going to appeal. I have spent hours of my time and paid a solicitor to advise me, all of which will have to be refunded by RBK.

 

I am afraid you will have to do all the work yourself and the only way they will confirm anything is by requesting under the Freedom of Information Act. There are several points of appeal and I would say regardless of the no right turn sign being obscured, there is not an advanced warning of a bus lane when approaching. There is no requirement for a sign if turning right into a bus lane If you were caught on camera, where is the statutory sign in Lady Booth Road warning you that camera enforcement is being used. There is no statutary requirement for bus lane cctv signs The end of Bus Lane sign is missing, it was there when I was shopping today and has been for as long as I can remember therefore rendering the Bus Lane not compliant. The Camera used (probably Number 8) is not approved for this purpose either. No approval is needed for bus lane cameras RBK has a CoP on their website regarding the use of cameras, although it is part of a standard document issued by all councils, it interestingly omits a few paragraphs in reference to what footage is required to fully support their enforcement actions. For the other section of Eden Street the TMO is invalid because they didn’t spell the name of the road correctly.

 

They do not have the powers to enforce a No right turn so don’t even bother with that.

 

Keep us all informed.

 

If you intend to take on a Local Authority it helps if you know what you are talking about.

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Green and Mean. The person has said they have been caught driving or being in a bus lane - that is the alleged offence. I don’t think they have been charged with turning right. Clearly he/she has turned right and not seen the sign, there is a picture of an example of how it can be obscured.

 

Bus Lanes require a Traffic Management Order, as do simple on street parking arrangements and one way streets etc.

 

 

Turning right into a bus land. Do you work for Kingston Council? Of course a sign is required. If approaching head on the sign (I think 935) is required at a ratio of 1:30, in other words 30 metres before, if in a 30 mph area. Joining junctions required a sign prior to the junction.

 

If CCTV is being used as enforcement, then the appropriate signage must be displayed at all approaching roads (the area).

 

I cannot comment on the end of bus lane sign as I wasn’t there today.

 

Of course approval is required for ANY enforcement camera. There are very strict specifications (ignored by RBK) for the device, for the control, maintainance, recording, storage of material and use of such material.

 

If you don’t work for the Royal Borough of Kingston, then it must be London Borough of Barking.

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Green and Mean. The person has said they have been caught driving or being in a bus lane - that is the alleged offence. I don’t think they have been charged with turning right. Clearly he/she has turned right and not seen the sign, there is a picture of an example of how it can be obscured.

 

Bus Lanes require a Traffic Management Order, as do simple on street parking arrangements and one way streets etc.

 

 

Turning right into a bus land. Do you work for Kingston Council? Of course a sign is required. If approaching head on the sign (I think 935) is required at a ratio of 1:30, in other words 30 metres before, if in a 30 mph area. Joining junctions required a sign prior to the junction.

 

If CCTV is being used as enforcement, then the appropriate signage must be displayed at all approaching roads (the area).

 

I cannot comment on the end of bus lane sign as I wasn’t there today.

 

Of course approval is required for ANY enforcement camera. There are very strict specifications (ignored by RBK) for the device, for the control, maintainance, recording, storage of material and use of such material.

 

If you don’t work for the Royal Borough of Kingston, then it must be London Borough of Barking.

 

As I said it helps if you know what you are talking about...

 

Bus lane enforcement under the LLA act 1996 requires a prescribed device not an approved device which is only required for parking enforcement. A 'prescribed device' is a CCTV camera (of any type).

 

A bus lane does require a Traffic management order however that has nothing to do with the Traffic management act as you originally stated.

 

The traffic signs manual DofT states that a sign diag 962 is not required if turning right onto a bus lane as the solid white line should suffice.

 

cctv enforcement signs are not required by any law and only advised in the London Councils code of practice.

 

The bus lane is not compliant for the reasons that were discussed earlier in the thread almost nothing you have said is either correct or of any help to the OP.

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You are correct. The sign 962 is not a requirement. The camera sign is also not also a requirement but is recommended good practice.

 

For bus lane enforcement there is no requirement for an approved device under London Local Authorities Act 1996. The 1996 Act requires that the equipment be a prescribed device, described in the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (as amended) as:

"a camera designed or adapted to record the presence of a vehicle on an area of road which is a bus lane or route for use by buses only."

 

If bus lane enforcement is being performed under the Transport Act 2000 then an approved device is required. Approval is similar to that for parking enforcement except that the system must additionally comply with the Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005.

 

This section of Eden Street is not a bus lane. The east-west section, from Union Street to opposite the Old Post Office (Brook Street) is a contra flow bus lane according to an order passed in July 2009.

 

Viewing Page 11882 of Issue 59124

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You are correct.

 

I know!

 

I didn't wish to come across as rude but this forum is used not only by members but many others who google the topics and any information provided within as 'fact' rather than 'opinion' needs to be correct. Making statements such as 'the camera needs to be approved' when legally it clearly doesn't can lead members to make misguided appeals or throw away a discount when no other avenue of appeal is available. In answer to your question no I don't work for either RBK or Barking Council.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all

 

My son has just received a PCN for driving in a bus lane in Eden Street in Kingston. The 'offence' took place on Feb 17th 2010, but the PCN was not issued until 01/04/2010. Does any one know if PCN's have to be issued within a certain time period, as speeding PCN's do (14 days I think)

 

Thanks

 

Gooner1961 :confused:

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Hi all

 

My son has just received a PCN for driving in a bus lane in Eden Street in Kingston. The 'offence' took place on Feb 17th 2010, but the PCN was not issued until 01/04/2010. Does any one know if PCN's have to be issued within a certain time period, as speeding PCN's do (14 days I think)

 

Thanks

 

Gooner1961 :confused:

 

Its 28 days providing there was no delay in getting keeper details from DVLA or the car was hired/leased. If he was on the section between the old post ofice/ashdown road and Mc Donalds appeal on the grounds discussed at the start of the thread ie there is no bus lane.

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Yeah, there appears to be a more definative bus lane at the one end of Eden Street with no nentry signs ect so if thats the one, the situ may be a little more difficult for the OP

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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