PCN challenge rejected, next steps

[mrpenguin]

Hi All,

 

Some help required please:

 

My wife received a PCN whilst parked in a local council car park for allegedly not displaying a valid P&D ticket. We contested this informally using their website (North Herts Council) as she was in possesion of a valid ticket, which we were sure was visible.

 

The informal challenge was rejected and two photos were sent showing a windscreen with the corner of what appears to be the P&D ticket showing in one of them.

 

I've put the point forward in a response that these pictures are subjective as the position of the person taking the picture and the angle of the camera will determin what is visible in the windscreen - as whilst standing adjacent to the car on the drivers side the ticket is clearly visible and readable.

 

Before I go into too much detail, I noted the following about the 2 pictures we were sent:

Pitcure 1: shows the drivers side of the windscreen with the PCN charge on the window, the corner of the P&D ticket and part of the bonnet.

Picture 2: shows the passenger side of the winsdcreen, part of the dash board and tax disc 'without' the PCN notice or the drivers corner of the dashboard where the P&D ticket was sitting.

Am I right in thinking that as picture 1 does not show anything to tie the picture to the car's identity (such as reg or tax disc) it can be disregarded AND as picture 2 shows the car's tax disc but not the whole of the dashbaoard it could be argued the P&D ticket is simply not visible in the pitcute? lol

 

Any help and advice is greatly apprecaited.

[lamma]

yes, argue the case. Was this an NSL ticket ?

[mrpenguin]

yes, argue the case. Was this an NSL ticket ?

 

Sorry, what is 'NSL' ?

[lamma]

Who not what. NCP offshoot that does council ticketing in lots of places.

[Jamberson]

If you have challenged already and had it refused, then you must bear in mind that if you opt to fight on, you will be surrendering the option on paying the discounted rate.

 

In my view, this is only worth doing if you have a better than 50 percent chance of succeeding, and from what you have said, I think your chances are slim.

 

Photos are not necessary for the LA to enforce. They will take as their primary evidence the judgement of the CEO who issued the PCN. If he/she says the ticket was not readable, and you deny that, they will usually take the CEO's testimony unless you have something concrete to prove your case.

 

Sounds to me like you are not going to win a formal appeal - which will cost you in the long run as you will have to pay double the amount now due.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Jamberson is absolutely correct.

 

However there is one area where I take a different view and that is where I would take everything to formal appeal and to PATAS. My experience is that things have a habit of emerging or happening in that process that make the case winnable, not to mention the fact that the LA may fail to respond to your appeal against the NTO! So on this basis I would rate your chances should you wish to fight as higher than 50/50.

 

It does mean the risk of the loss of the discount and it does mean that you have to put in the time and the effort to win for which you get no compensation. It is also relatively easy for me to get to PATAS for a personal hearing (which I prefer) but I may take a different approach if that was not the case or I got a PCN a long way away.

 

Horses for courses!

[mrpenguin]

In the challenge rejection letter from the LA it advised if we send in a copy of the valid ticket we had they may reconsider. I have sent this in with a letter stating a few other points and am hoping they will waiver the charge.

[foxie_68]

This happened to me. I sent them my valid ticket (keeping a photocopy for myself) & they accepted my appeal. However, if it happens again then I will be fined.

 

Just wish our council like a lot of others would install a machine that issues tickets that you can stick to your windscreen...however, maybe it is not so much the cost of the machines that is an issue but the loss in revenue.

[green_and_mean]

Just wish our council like a lot of others would install a machine that issues tickets that you can stick to your windscreen...however, maybe it is not so much the cost of the machines that is an issue but the loss in revenue.

 

We use both and more tickets actually fall off having been been stuck to the window than disapear if laid on the dash and if the glue is made stronger people moan it leaves paper stuck on the windows so you cannot win.

[sailor sam]

Ive got a take on this issue with pay and display tickets. Why can't we have a system where a car park would have individual numbered spaces (similar to a table number in a restaurant) and which would have a machine where you pay and then enter your 'space number' and VRM by way of a key pad (similar to an ATM). The machine then prints a receipt bearing your VRM, space number and time of expirey to confirm the system has logged your parking which YOU KEEP with you. The ticket inspector would have a portable device which would connect to the machine and down load all the relevant data about the cars parked at any particular time. He would then do his rounds checking that each space is occupied with the correct car at the correct time. No need for any tickets to be left on the car at all thus removing the problems of not being able to see them because of snow, being blown off the dash board ect, ect, ect?

 

(If somebody does persue this idea, just remember who suggested it if it makes you the next Richard Branson!)

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

Edited March 31, 2010 by sailor sam

[crem]

Why can't we have a system where a car park would have individual numbered spaces (similar to a table number in a restaurant) and which would have a machine where you pay and then enter your 'space number' and VRM by way of a key pad (similar to an ATM). The machine then prints a receipt bearing your VRM, space number and time of expirey to confirm the system has logged your parking which YOU KEEP with you.

 

..because 50% of people wouldn't be able to tell you their reg number if you asked them, and some of the 50% who could, wouldn't have memorised which space they were in before going to the ticket machine, the the "success rate" may now be down to 25 or 30% of people getting it right!

 

Further to this, the "basic offence" must be to have parked without paying to do so. If you have parked and paid, but simply mis-keyed your reg or bay number, you have invented a whole new "offence" of "failing to have a good memory"!

 

As if the motorist isn't penalised for enough offences without adding in another one :grin:

[Jamberson]

How hard is it, really, to lay a printed ticket face-up on the dashboard? Could it possibly be easier?

[sailor sam]

How hard is it, really, to lay a printed ticket face-up on the dashboard? Could it possibly be easier?

 

Well obviously it wasn't for the OP in this case!

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[green_and_mean]

Ive got a take on this issue with pay and display tickets. Why can't we have a system where a car park would have individual numbered spaces (similar to a table number in a restaurant) and which would have a machine where you pay and then enter your 'space number' and VRM by way of a key pad (similar to an ATM). The machine then prints a receipt bearing your VRM, space number and time of expirey to confirm the system has logged your parking which YOU KEEP with you. The ticket inspector would have a portable device which would connect to the machine and down load all the relevant data about the cars parked at any particular time. He would then do his rounds checking that each space is occupied with the correct car at the correct time. No need for any tickets to be left on the car at all thus removing the problems of not being able to see them because of snow, being blown off the dash board ect, ect, ect?

 

(If somebody does persue this idea, just remember who suggested it if it makes you the next Richard Branson!)

 

 

I would expect a good many people would get PCNs for the wrong VRM or bay number.

[Michael Browne]

No need for any tickets to be left on the car at all thus removing the problems of not being able to see them because of snow,

 

So now I've got to carry a broom and maybe a shovel to clear snow/leaves off the space number

[sailor sam]

So now I've got to carry a broom and maybe a shovel to clear snow/leaves off the space number

 

OK, ok guys... sorry I spoke!

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[sailor sam]

I would expect a good many people would get PCNs for the wrong VRM or bay number.

 

You're not suggesting that so many people are that dicks lectic are you G & M?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[green_and_mean]

You're not suggesting that so many people are that dicks lectic are you G & M?

 

__________________

.

 

If people cannot come to terms with placing a ticket on view and ensuring its visible before leaving the car, memorising a VRM and bay number long enough to get to a machine and pay is going to be way beyond their capabilities. Most face down tickets are due to drivers being in a rush rather than freak winds or other acts of God.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I fail to understand the demise of barrier controlled car parks where you get a ticket on entry and pay at exit. Seems so simple to me.

[crem]

I fail to understand the demise of barrier controlled car parks where you get a ticket on entry and pay at exit. Seems so simple to me.

 

Just used one at the hospital in Gateshead today. Great idea, didn't have to guess how long I'd be in the hospital and only paid for the time I used.

[shamen]

I fail to understand the demise of barrier controlled car parks where you get a ticket on entry and pay at exit. Seems so simple to me.

 

Pretty simple

 

1) the operators make hardly any revenue from parking tickets (and what charges the do make normally come from cars dumped there, so they end up having to pay for removal and pursue the costs from the reg keeper, which i bet they dont get half of their money back)

 

2) the operators make no additional revenue for people over-estimating the time they need to be there, paying for a 4 hour ticket but using only 3 hours (a-la clem)

 

Solution: rip the barriers out, install ticket machines and some dodgy ticket inspectors and watch the profit rise. Its just a business decision which some cronies round a desk devised to make more money from us the consumer.

[foxie_68]

With regard to how simple it is to leave a ticket on display on the dashboard being simple.

 

You try it when you are in a wide open car park where the wind is blowing hard. Your kids jump out the car (causing a through wind) and there is no pavement near by and taxi drivers whizz round as if they are in the grand prix.

 

Our local car park which is by the shops has the system where you have to put the first three digits of your reg in. There is one pavement area in the centre which has the disabled spaces on it. However, in the rest of the car park you can drive through the spaces as there are no barriers so once your kids are out the car you or living on edge till you get to the side as people tend to drive through.

 

So yes putting a ticket face up should be simple enough but sometimes when there are other things on your mind and your child's saftey is at risk then you do not always double check. Oh and yes, in a perfect world your children would stay quietly by your side until you had checked/fixed your ticket but if somebody else is parking or getting in/out of their car next to you then they sometimes have no choice but to move.

 

So there you have it, in a perfect world you would only go shopping on a calm day without the kids in tow but hey how life is not perfect.

[Jamberson]

You're right - real life is more complicated. However the issue of how simple it is arose because someone else suggested a yet more complex system.

 

I think p&d is about as easy as possible for non-barrier parking areas, although I appreciate I'm not currently standing in a force 10 gale while trying to stop my kids running into the road! Any better ideas on how it could work?

[Michael Browne]

One of these?:

The Parky - Parking Ticket/Permit Holder

[foxie_68]

Sorry about my rant. It's just this particular car park does my head in. It's for the local shops so you can park for 30 minutes for free, 70p for two hours. So my thinking is if you are gonna be there for more than 30 mins you may as well use that 70p on fuel to go to a big super market that has a safer car park. The taxi's used to use the outer road to come round and pick folks up from outside the Sainsbury's. They now however, speed down the centre lanes within it and why should they slow down as there is no max speed limit. Contacted the council about this, no interest, guess they will wait for someone to be hit by a car before it becomes a priority.

 

The main issue is though that the local traffic wardens have a hut near by so they are always around ready to pounce on someone who has gone five minutes over their 30.

 

I realise that some car park's have barrier systems but think they may have a problem with that here due to the high winds as we are not far from the coast.

 

I just think it's a shame cause the car park issues put a lot of people off and it's making it harder for the small business's in the area to compete. Our council at the moment seem to be changing a lot of the free parking areas to a pay area, then making the local streets near by resident only. My gut feeling this is more to do with getting extra revenue due to PCN's rather than traffic control. Shoot, I'm ranting again, can you tell I've been stung lately . Sorry for using this thread for my own rant...I will bow out now and behave. LOL