Devils Advocate

[disneyman]

Hi All,

 

I was thinking the other day about a possible scenario which I would like some legal clarification on if someone can help.

 

Joe Bloggs borrows £1000 from a creditor; Joe gets sacked from his job and is therefore unable to repay the loan. The creditor begins legal proceedings against him and eventually Joe winds up with a CCJ against him for around £1300 now as the interest and legal fees have been added.

 

Joe is still unemployed and is still finding it difficult to maintain payments on the loan. The creditor then sells the debt to a debt collector who in turn is also having trouble receiving payments from Joe. The debt collector then also begins legal proceedings against Joe and Joe winds up with yet another CCJ as a result of being unable to maintain payments to the debt collection agency.

 

Query: Can Joe wind up with one or possibly several (should the debt collection agency decide to sell on Joes debt again) CCJs for the same debt?

 

I do not have anyone in particular in mind with this scenario it has just occured to me while thinking about creditors selling debts onto debt collection agencies. It would appear on the face of it to be a very unfair system.

[Seminole]

As far as I am aware you can only have one CCJ for a debt. If a debt is assigned from a creditor to a debt collector, then the creditor's rights under the CCJ are assigned too. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?

[alanfromderby]

This is an interesting point. I cannot see how a third-party (the buyer of the debt) can possibly take legal action as the debtor has not made any contract with them.

 

Having said that, it would be possible that the agency my TRY to, on the basis that the debtor is more than likely going to just admit the claim.

 

Of course, should the debtor put in a defence on the two legal arguments that a) the plaintiff has no contract, and b) this claim is already lodged as an outstanding CCJ, I would expect the claim to get thrown out.

 

Please however note that this is the view of a lay person with a limited knowledge of the law.

[Seminole]

Only a creditor can bring a CCJ claim. A debt collection agency (DCA) can fill in the paperwork but it would be acting on behalf of the creditor and the action would be in the creditor's name.

 

A company trading as a DCA can only bring a CCJ in its own name if it has purchased the debt. As the owner of the debt it is now the creditor. In this situation the only reason why the DCA would purchase the debt is if the original agreement with the creditor allowed them to assign it to a third party.

 

There are some DCAs out there that just collect debts on behalf of others and there are others that specialise in buying debts. If you being chased by a DCA it's essential to discover whether they are an agent or the owner of the debt.

[disneyman]

yes but would an already issued CCJ allow the debt to be sold and a new "creditor" assigned, or would a CCJ prevent this from happening.

 

Im not refering to anyone in particular or any case for that matter. My point is that Debt collection agencies purchase debts to make a profit if it is seen that they are failing to make a profit then what action can they take? other than to comence legal action (but would they be entitled to do so on a judgement which has already been made?).

[Seminole]

As far as I'm aware a debt can be assigned after a CCJ has been issued. All rights of enforcement would pass to the new owner.

 

The most likely circumstances for this to happen are when the debtor has very few assets and low income. The company purchasing the debt would pay a lot less than its nominal value in the hope that the debtor came into some money.

 

In reality, I believe that most debts are sold before the CCJ stage is reached.

[disneyman]

This is true most debts are sold prior to getting to the CCJ stage. I am trying to establish if the scenario above would be possible i.e. if the Debt Collection agency took over the role of creditor after Joe was awarded a CCJ and then the DCA then took legal action and Joe was awarded another CCJ thats all!!!.

 

I am only being a Devil's Advocate over this issue. My reasons for this are that in my current circumstances it has become blatantly obvious to me that it appears to be all to easy for a creditor to obtain a CCJ against you. With yourself having little or no say in either the process or grounds for appeal if you later find out that part of the debt was unlawful. In my opinion the CCJ process should either be tightened up in the favour of the defendant placing more of a onous of proof on the creditor and relaxing the rules on time limits following a judgement to allow for appeals (to me 7 days to apply to have the judgement set aside is to short a time frame). As in my case I find out 2 months following the judgement that all of the debt was unlawful due to the charges which were incurred over a 6 year period. This made the process of reclaiming the funds more complicated on the basis that I failed to submit an application to have the judgement set aside.

 

On the flip side if the process was tightened up then the burden of proof on site members reclaiming funds from bank would also be tightened ??? but the banks normally quit prior to getting into court and any changes to the CCJ process to allow for appeals would only affect the few who took the system the whole distance.

 

Maybe we should begin a campaign to get the CCJ system overhauled!!!

[Seminole]

My understanding, which could well be wrong, is that you can apply to set aside a judgement at any time. It may, however, be more difficult after an extended period.

[disneyman]

The one's I've been issued only give you 7 days.

[rbrears]

You can only get one CCJ for a debt - once it has been pursued by claim form in the county court and judgment given any third party buying an interest in the debt would only be able to enforce the original ccj, as has been mentioned, either as agent for the original creditor or as owner of the debt.

[disneyman]

Is this written down anywhere?

[BankFodder]

It is called res judicata (The thing is is judged) - it is really the double jeopardy rule.

[alanfromderby]

The important thing is to make the Debt Collection Agency aware that you have a judgement. We had a judgement against us for an A&L Credit Card from a few years ago (too many unfortunately). The Order was made that we paid £5 per month.

 

It was then assigned to a DCA who we have been paying ever since. During the period we had voluntarily agreed to increase the payments to £6.50.

 

For some reason, a payment went missing, and they then sent a letter saying that we were £31 in arrears, and threatened they would issue a CC summons.

 

We got in touch and pointed out that the payments had been made on time, and that in fact we only had to pay £5 according to the original CC judgement anyway - so how could we be "in arrears" - especially to the figure they were claiming.

 

A few days later we received a letter "accepting" our proposal to repay at £6.50 per mont. BTW the debt is about £1300!

 

I think the problem is that they often have "processes", that follow a set track, and unless they are told that the debt is already subject to a CCJ, then they may just keep rolling the process along.

[BankFodder]

Luckily The Consumer Action Group has processes which just keep rolling along too.

[vogelrok]

how many times can a debt be sold on. is there any ruling to this at all. i had heard something along the lines of it cant be sold more than twice, how true this is i dont know. its just hear say to me so far. i have tried looking but not getting anything confirmed yet.

[disneyman]

This topic was closed on 03/07/19.

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